engine builders please chime in

[bryonbush 85]

Long story short, the 302 that i got with my 69 sportroof was rebuilt by the 2nd previous owner. the guy i bought it from said it started up and ran ok, just very under powered. he pulled the motor and found that the rings werent gaped and set right, thus high compression in some, low in others. then he left that car and motor and the back burner and thats where i come in.

i pulled the thing all the way apart. pistons are .030 over with new rods. the crank says .020 /.020. the cam is an edelbrock #2122 Performer-plus cam. the guy who assembled the motor used ARP bolts everywhere. the cylinder walls look good, except one which has a slight gouge in it (assuming from the rings pinching.) I was hoping to salvage as much as this is as i can to save some coin. my goal here is to hone the cylinders, put new bearings on the rods and crank, then new rings on and call it good. 

with that said, i know just enough engine rebuilding to get me into some serious trouble. so i'm looking for advice on which bearings and rings to get. I also plan on putting a set of trick flow 11r heads and it will be mated with a T5 trans. This will be a street track car and will most likely have a 3.50 9" rear. So i also need a good suggestion on a cam. 

i appreciate any suggestions, good or bad, to point me in the right direction. Thanks!

[1969_Mach1 333]

Before you get too involved with new parts.  See what it will take to remove that gouge from the cylinder wall.  Honing the cylinders will remove 0.002"-0.003", so make certain that is enough to clean up that one cylinder.  Also, consider that by the time that gouge is removed with honing, there might have a too much piston to wall clearance or be at the big end of the tolerance.  The machine shop you use should be able to help and advise what it will take to clean up that cylinder.

If it were mine and honing was enough to remove that gouge, I'd look at installing forged pistons.  As those typically require more piston to wall clearance than cast or hypereutectic alloy pistons.  

[barnett468 418]

honing the cylinders will only take out as much as they home which can be as little as .00025" (1/4 of one one thousand).

standard cast iron rings will seat the best and the quickest.

have the bores measured to see if they are true.

i would get the bock 0 decked then run a cometic .035 thick gaskets to reduce the potential for detonation and allow you to run high compression.

your compression affects the cam choice so we need to know the volume of the piston and cc's of the heads you want to use.

a basic hydraulic cam is the most affordable. i use crane anti pump lifters or crower cool face cam oiler lifters.

true roller timing chain set.

what exhaust do you have?

how far do you want to rev it?

What do you like and dislike about the current cam?

 

 

 

[bryonbush 85]

21 hours ago, barnett468 said:

honing the cylinders will only take out as much as they home which can be as little as .00025" (1/4 of one one thousand).

standard cast iron rings will seat the best and the quickest.

have the bores measured to see if they are true.

i would get the bock 0 decked then run a cometic .035 thick gaskets to reduce the potential for detonation and allow you to run high compression.

your compression affects the cam choice so we need to know the volume of the piston and cc's of the heads you want to use.

not sure about piston info. my guess is it's a stock replacement but ill get the stamping numbers off them when I'm back home. as for the heads, it looks as though ill be at 55cc with the 11r 190 heads.

a basic hydraulic cam is the most affordable. i use crane anti pump lifters or crower cool face cam oiler lifters.

true roller timing chain set.

got that!

what exhaust do you have? none yet

how far do you want to rev it? probably 7K not too sure to be honest.

What do you like and dislike about the current cam? what I like is the fact that I already have it. I don't have anything against it, just know there are probably better options. but if it will get me where I should be, ill run it.

im trying to salvage as much as possible. the cylinders look good and you can still see that crosshatching from the machine work. only thing im trying to do is to deglaze the walls for a good seal on the rings. I'm fully aware that there is always a better way of doing things like this, but I figure if it lasts me a long enough to go with a good stroker motor then great. if it fails in a summer, im not out too much on the block.

here's a link and you can see the pictures of whats going on. http://forums.vintage-mustang.com/vintage-mustang-forum/1100970-engine-block-issue.html

 

 

 

[barnett468 418]

ok, if you want to spin 7000 rpm you need forged pistons, high perf crank damper, forged rods, better crank than stock, rebalance your engine, 11.0 compression, and a solid lifter cam would be better than a hydraulic. you also need 3.73 gears and a dual friction clutch disc or similar with around 1850 lbs of pressure on the pressure plate . i would also run a 10.5" clutch . mcleod makes them.

performer rpm intake at the minimum with a 650 to 675 cfm carb.

long tube headers . 2 1/4" exhaust with a cross over or x pipe, non restrictive mufflers.

a good ignition would also help.

 

 

 

 

 

[1969_Mach1 333]

I know Barnett will not agree with me.  But, anyway, This sounds like it started as a simple refresh of the motor.  The 7000 RPM requirement changes everything.  If that's the goal you should take that block to a machine shop and let them determine what is needed with it.  Depending on how deep that gouge is, you still do not know if honing or boring is needed.  Ring seal is more critical with this type of build.  The block at minimum should be torque plate honed and squared.  Since the pull on head bolts affects the shape of the cylinders, when torque plate honing, be certain to provide whatever head bolts or head studs you plan to use.  Since the 302 only uses four 7/16" diameter head bolts around each cylinder, ARP head studs are a safer option.

At 7000 RPM, the Performer RPM might get you there.  But I'd seriously consider switching to a single plane intake manifold for that type of build.

[bryonbush 85]

The 7k wind up was just a guesstimate. You're correct about the objective was a refresh of the block to avoid the costs of machine work. 

[1969_Mach1 333]

Well, you can.  I have done that with a stock refresh.  Because you have one cylinder with a gouge, I'd use the type of cylinder hone that has 3 abrasive spring loaded stones instead of a ball hone.  It's been a long time, so double check, I think you need 400 grit stones for molly rings.  Have somebody almost flood the cylinder with some type of cutting fluid.  I used a gallon of WD-40 in a good spray bottle with a pan below to catch the old stuff.  I had somebody constantly spray it in the cylinder while I honed it.  After you have honed the cylinders check the piston to cylinder wall clearance.  If the honing and piston to wall clearance is all okay, then continue.

You might want to pick up feeler gauges.  The type that about 12" long and 1/2" wide.  Maybe 0.001" to 0.005" in 0.0005" increments.  Also a straight edge.  NAPA often has those feeler gauges.  McMaster Car might also have that type of stuff.

[barnett468 418]

that should be honed on a sunnen hone to maintain the bores its trueness to insure proper ring seal.

so since you want to do it as cheap as possible just run the same cam and compression and deck height you have.

 

[bryonbush 85]

4 hours ago, barnett468 said:

that should be honed on a sunnen hone to maintain the bores its trueness to insure proper ring seal.

so since you want to do it as cheap as possible just run the same cam and compression and deck height you have.

 

cams arnt too expensive and ill be getting a better intake too. so is there a better cam for me and what im trying to do? if there wont be too much of a gain, then ill keep what I have. I appreciate all the advice.

[barnett468 418]

11 hours ago, bryonbush said:

cams arnt too expensive and ill be getting a better intake too. so is there a better cam for me and what im trying to do? if there wont be too much of a gain, then ill keep what I have. I appreciate all the advice.

well, you didn'r answer my questions therfore, i have no idea what cam will best suit your needs. i can tell you that the "bigger" the cam, the higher the compression should be to get the most out of the cam. if your pistons are .020 below the head surface and you use 55 cc heads with a standard .041 thick gasket, your compression will be a little less than optimal and you should not run a high revving cam.

cutting corners will cut performance.

[bryonbush 85]

On 1/16/2018 at 10:42 AM, barnett468 said:

well, you didn'r answer my questions therfore, i have no idea what cam will best suit your needs. i can tell you that the "bigger" the cam, the higher the compression should be to get the most out of the cam. if your pistons are .020 below the head surface and you use 55 cc heads with a standard .041 thick gasket, your compression will be a little less than optimal and you should not run a high revving cam.

cutting corners will cut performance.

Got home this weekend and got the markings off the pistons I have. They are TRW 255-98. A little Google says they are older pistons that were stock use. You might know a little more and what they were used in/for 

[barnett468 418]

a photo of the top of the pistons would help plus the answers to my other questions.

[1969_Mach1 333]

Those are simply casting or forging numbers and don't help to identify the pistons.

[bryonbush 85]

Barnett: im not sure which question I may have missed that I didn't answer. the one post you made with all the questions in it, I responded to in red colored text.

tomorrow ill try to scrub one of the piston tops and get some numbers on it.

[barnett468 418]

3 hours ago, bryonbush said:

Barnett: im not sure which question I may have missed that I didn't answer. the one post you made with all the questions in it, I responded to in red colored text.

tomorrow ill try to scrub one of the piston tops and get some numbers on it.

you did not answer this.

" What do you like and dislike about the current cam? "

 

1. do you want more bottom end power and less top end power?

2. do you want more top end power and less bottom end power?

3. do you want a smooth, moderate, or rough idle?

4. are you going to change your gear ratio?

 

[1969_Mach1 333]

My understanding is byronbush hasn't ran this motor as it is, or very little because it ran poorly due to the compression variation.  Therefore, was never able to determine how the current combination runs and is basically starting over with it.  I think a more realistic question is how will the car be used and what the budget is like.  Most times (at least with me) the budget limits what can be done with a project.

[bryonbush 85]

Mach1 nailed it. I have never ran this motor as it was already out of the car and partially disassembled when I got it. So I can't tell you how it performed. So when I get questions about the cam, as I stated I before, I don't have anything against it, but if there's better options out there let's hear it. I'm looking for a good overall performer since it'll be used for street driving, autocross, and track racing. Again, I'm trying to salvage the long block and the parts I have to spend money on a good set of heads and intake. 

Here are the piston markings and a search shows they are stock type pistons where you can find them at most places.

[barnett468 418]

1 hour ago, bryonbush said:

Mach1 nailed it. I have never ran this motor as it was already out of the car and partially disassembled when I got it. So I can't tell you how it performed. So when I get questions about the cam, as I stated I before, I don't have anything against it, but if there's better options out there let's hear it. I'm looking for a good overall performer since it'll be used for street driving, autocross, and track racing. Again, I'm trying to salvage the long block and the parts I have to spend money on a good set of heads and intake. 

Here are the piston markings and a search shows they are stock type pistons where you can find them at most places.

there is no such thing as a cam that performs "better" than one you have not used.

there is no such thing as a cam that has power everywhere that is ideal for every single type of driving. if i could design one that would do that i would have more money than bill gates.

you get to choose one primary type of use and build the engine for that type of use . i am very familiar with autocross, and unless you have 400 hp or more, you wont go very fast.

if you do not answer the questions i posted, i can not help you.