Long Tube Headers?

[Mach1 Driver 560]

3 hours ago, Rsanter said:

Long tube headsers and bigger primary tubes are for higher RPM applications.

for general street around town performance I would use the tri Y or shorty headers

 

bob

In a recent email I received from FPA about their long tubes, he talked about 664 hp @ 7000 rpm. He gets some high end customers.

Most agree that you can only spin these guys to 5500 reliably, 6000 occasionally, and anything above 6200 needs after-market rods or its coming undone.

[BuckeyeDemon 211]

4 hours ago, Rsanter said:

Long tube headsers and bigger primary tubes are for higher RPM applications.

for general street around town performance I would use the tri Y or shorty headers

bob

i think its the opposite with regards to length.   this is simply because a longer primary tube length helps to isolate the neighboring cylinders from the pressure wave induced in a neighboring cylinder. 

for example a cylinder is just at the end of it's exhaust cycle and it approaches the overlap period (cylinder pressure should be almost nothing).  there will have been a cylinder prior to this that just cracked open it's exhaust valve and induced a high pressure pulse into the exhaust system.  the cylinder during overlap will be very sensitive to any pressure in the exhaust.  the longer tube helps isolate the cylinder better.

header primary lengths generally reduce in length as the rpm requirement increases because of the resistance of the pipe/unit length.

tri-y's help with space constraints compared to having all tubes merge at one point but can still act the same by taking advantage of keeping the increased separation by merging cylinders that aren't consecutive.

the book "Scientific Design of Exhaust & Intake Systems" is a nice easy read.

 

 

 

[Rsanter 152]

20 hours ago, BuckeyeDemon said:

i think its the opposite with regards to length.   this is simply because a longer primary tube length helps to isolate the neighboring cylinders from the pressure wave induced in a neighboring cylinder. 

for example a cylinder is just at the end of it's exhaust cycle and it approaches the overlap period (cylinder pressure should be almost nothing).  there will have been a cylinder prior to this that just cracked open it's exhaust valve and induced a high pressure pulse into the exhaust system.  the cylinder during overlap will be very sensitive to any pressure in the exhaust.  the longer tube helps isolate the cylinder better.

header primary lengths generally reduce in length as the rpm requirement increases because of the resistance of the pipe/unit length.

tri-y's help with space constraints compared to having all tubes merge at one point but can still act the same by taking advantage of keeping the increased separation by merging cylinders that aren't consecutive.

the book "Scientific Design of Exhaust & Intake Systems" is a nice easy read.

 

 

 

Perhaps, but what I know is that NASCAR uses long tube headers. They do not use tri-ys 

from everything I know is that the long tubes are for the higher RPM along with larger primary tubes

[cavboy78 28]

pics attached. lowest point on either side is 2 1/4". this is with the drop motor mounts. ymmv

[BuckeyeDemon 211]

4 hours ago, Rsanter said:

Perhaps, but what I know is that NASCAR uses long tube headers. They do not use tri-ys 

from everything I know is that the long tubes are for the higher RPM along with larger primary tubes

i guess we will all have our own understanding/theories of operation, which is fine.

i'm not understanding what the nascar comments are suppose to mean though.

in any event, please click on the following link with caution.

http://www.ebay.com/bhp/nascar-headers

 

[Mach1 Driver 560]

1 hour ago, cavboy78 said:

pics attached. lowest point on either side is 2 1/4". this is with the drop motor mounts. ymmv

Well that's considerably more than 1/2" below the frame rails they said I would get with stock engine mounts. How much do you think the mounts dropped the engine?

My C5 Vette is 3" and it scrapes on driveways and speed bumps all the time- but that's on the skids underneath the nose, not a third of the way back. Obviously they knew it was a problem and put in skids. It can't be put in one of my garage stalls because it bottoms out in the middle- the driveway is too sloped. That may be an issue here too- I'll have to mock this up and see if its  going to be a problem.

If you know how much you dropped the engine that would help. Thanks

[cavboy78 28]

the engine mounts drop it between .5" and 1". The measurement of 2 1/4" also goes to the very bottom of the clamps. The header itself terminates about 1.5" below the frame rails which jives with his measurements plus engine mounts. I could gain some more clearance by potentially positioning the clamps differently. Additionally, the exhaust is the standard flow master kit. Once i get "more complete" with the build, i will put on a custom exhaust that tucks up better.  But not in a hurry at this point because i personally don't have any issues with it. 

[Mach1 Driver 560]

9 hours ago, cavboy78 said:

the engine mounts drop it between .5" and 1". The measurement of 2 1/4" also goes to the very bottom of the clamps. The header itself terminates about 1.5" below the frame rails which jives with his measurements plus engine mounts. I could gain some more clearance by potentially positioning the clamps differently. Additionally, the exhaust is the standard flow master kit. Once i get "more complete" with the build, i will put on a custom exhaust that tucks up better.  But not in a hurry at this point because i personally don't have any issues with it. 

Thanks, that's exactly the kind of information I'm after. I see your point about the flow master kit. It looks like it angles down slightly behind the collector. Do you have a picture of the entire cars stance? Your avatar picture doesn't show much.

[BuckeyeDemon 211]

mach1 driver.  keep in mind, behind where that collector flange is, the transmission crossmember and associated floor support is there.  that will limit how far up into the car the tubes can tuck.  the factory crossmember setups had sort of a v-shape in an area close to the transmission that allows the exhaust to tuck up tighter.  However a difficulty can be that it's closer to the transmission and the FPA's want to exit close to those floor supports on the sides (plus the FPAs don't angle much at all to point them towards the driveshaft area).

[Mach1 Driver 560]

Yep, ya need a good plumber to route all those pipes.

[Mach1 Driver 560]

15 hours ago, cavboy78 said:

The measurement of 2 1/4" also goes to the very bottom of the clamps.  

Just to be clear here, the 2-1/4 is that from the frame rails to the bottom clamp or to the ground? Just checking.

[cavboy78 28]

2 1/4" from the bottom of the frame rail to the very bottom of the clamp/lowest point of exhaust. I can do a measure from bottom of the exhaust to the ground, but that of course is all subjective to ride height. just let me know...2 1/4" from the bottom of the frame rail to the very bottom of the clamp/lowest point of exhaust. I can do a measure from bottom of the exhaust to the ground, but that of course is all subjective to ride height. just let me know...

[MN69Grande 203]

On 11/28/2017 at 7:46 PM, Vicfreg said:

69 Cruzin....yes those Patriot Tri-Ys look like exactly what I have.

MN69Grande - I also have the Hedmann Shorties for my '70 convertible, but have not installed them yet.  Any pictures would be appreciated of the transition between the headers and exhaust, crossover pipe, etc....

 

@Vicfreg - Here's some photos.  If you want more let me know.  I should have the car up on jack stands next month and then can get better angles for you.  The H pipe I have is pretty far from the transition as it is toward the back of the C4 while the headers end pretty much at the bell housing.  Everything is nice and tight and there is room to work around things.  I think they've kept their shine up over the last 6 years.  Kind of dirty in this photo though.

 

[MAC390 327]

That's nice, you can get to the plugs easy, i look at my super comps on the big block and just shake my head.

[cavboy78 28]

one other thing to mention on the FPAs which is nice, is it has the dual bolt patterns on the flange. The RHS 200 heads i have also have the dual bolt pattern which makes life so much easier for access/tightening purposes. I know you don't have those on the stock heads, but should you ever change heads, it will be nice later on down the road to have that option.

[Mach1 Driver 560]

3 hours ago, cavboy78 said:

2 1/4" from the bottom of the frame rail to the very bottom of the clamp/lowest point of exhaust. I can do a measure from bottom of the exhaust to the ground, but that of course is all subjective to ride height. just let me know...2 1/4" from the bottom of the frame rail to the very bottom of the clamp/lowest point of exhaust. I can do a measure from bottom of the exhaust to the ground, but that of course is all subjective to ride height. just let me know...

2-1/4 from the frame rail is good, thanks. I plan on AFR heads with the wide spacing

[Thin Lizzy 37]

There are long tube headers on my 351w.  No clearance problems.

[RPM 1,190]

Hey 69 Cruzin, if you haven't already bought some headers check these out:

https://m.ebay.com/itm/Tri-Y-Stainless-Steel-Exhaust-Headers-Fit-Ford-SB-289-302-351W-Mustang-1964-1970/172288918849?epid=16005255451&hash=item281d384541

I saw a thread on another forum where this auction was posted. I didn't need another set of headers but I made an offer of $80 which they accepted. I figured if they were junk the tubing is worth $80.

I couldn't believe the quality when they arrived. Now, I have no idea how they fit, but if I was in the market I'd buy a set. 

[69 Cruzin 4]

Awesome! Thanks for the lead RPM....Much appreciated 

[RPM 1,190]

Oh, btw, the measurement from the top off the primaries to the bottom of the collector tubing (not the flange) is 15". That is 2" less than my Hedman cheapos. But remember, mine is a 351w (taller than 302) and my motor is lowered some. 

[Rcodenewf 44]

I have FLOTECH ceramic long tubes on my 69 302 with no clearance issues. Car initially had a C4 when I installed them. Both sides went in well. The only thing I had to do was to use a drop down bracket for the steering stabilizer. Looking at the tube that was affected they could have easily corrected the bend so I didn't have to resort to the bracket.

Since then I've changed over to a TKO 600 with a hydraulic clutch and still no fitment issues. I'm happy with them and IIRC they weren't too pricey.

I can post pics if you like.

John

[69 Cruzin 4]

On 12/11/2017 at 8:42 PM, Rcodenewf said:

I have FLOTECH ceramic long tubes on my 69 302 with no clearance issues. Car initially had a C4 when I installed them. Both sides went in well. The only thing I had to do was to use a drop down bracket for the steering stabilizer. Looking at the tube that was affected they could have easily corrected the bend so I didn't have to resort to the bracket.

Since then I've changed over to a TKO 600 with a hydraulic clutch and still no fitment issues. I'm happy with them and IIRC they weren't too pricey.

I can post pics if you like.

John

Sure, pics would be great. Thanks