Need Confirmation on Which Borgeson Box I need

[copb8 97]

I'm ready to place an order for the Borgeson PS kit for my 1970 Mach 1 with 351 Cleveland and FMX gearbox. I 'think' i need part number 999024 but am concerned because the description states it fits 289/302/351W but doesn't mention the 351C motor. Also there's no other kit on their site that specifically mentions the 351C.

Here's the link to the unit at CJP:  Borgeson 999024 

Do you think that's just a descriptive oversight and that the same kit fits both 351's?

[det0326 179]

I am pretty sure that the Borgeson will work on the Cleveland. There are some on the forum that used the Borgeson on the 351c and one that comes to mind is prayers1 you may PM him and get the number he used.

[copb8 97]

Thanks Det.

 

I reached out to Borgeson and they said the limitation is only if you have a non-factory PS car and needed the factory PS pump as well. Since my car had PS the 999024 should work without problems.

[Vicfreg 771]

I would call Borgeson, they are very helpful.  If you have a factory power steering car, you will need a manual center link and pitman arm to do the Borgeson conversion.  I have one of these PS kits in my 1968 and in my 1970 convertible.   Also make sure you follow the instructions on the caster adjustment.  The car will drive way better with as much caster as you can dial into a stock suspension (> 3 degrees).    

[copb8 97]

Thanks for tip on the alignment. Is the heavy camber for on-center feel?

 

[aslanefe 333]

1 hour ago, copb8 said:

Thanks for tip on the alignment. Is the heavy camber for on-center feel?

 

Not camber, you have to increase "CASTER" for better return to center after a turn and keep the car straight while going straight.

[copb8 97]

Sorry, knew you meant caster, just brainfarted.

 

[1969_Mach1 333]

I installed the Borgeson steering box on my 69 Mach 1.  However, I have a 351W motor and 4sp trans.

As far as power steering pumps are concerned.  The Ford power steering pump doesn't create enough pressure for the Borgeson steering box to work as well as it could.  Also, I learned the hard way when overcoming the factory Z-bar issues that Borgeson's tech support will pretty much tell you what you want to hear to sell their products.  I guess what I am saying is before making the decision to purchase a Borgeson power steering box research installing the Saginaw power steering pump Borgeson sells on your Cleveland.  Plus, if you use a pump from another source and their are any issues with the steering box, thee is a very good chance Borgeson will blame the pump.  Also, get the power steering box and pump, etc. from Summit or Jegs who have good easy return policies. 

The return to center doesn't bother me at all and I have only reset the toe and centered the steering wheel on my car.  What does bother me is the Borgeson steering box is slightly taller than stock.  The result is column has to be moved up where it attaches to the floor which is simple, the holes are oversized.  But, this moves the steering wheel down closer to the seat.  With the stock 15" steering wheel, the steering wheel driving position is not as comfortable as it was before.  Also, with long legs, getting in and out of the car is difficult.

All in all, the power steering works great.  I don't know if I would do it again though.  There are always some negative aspects of any modification.  The slightly altered steering wheel position bothers me enough to think I would first try to get the stock power steering working correctly.  

[copb8 97]

11 hours ago, 1969_Mach1 said:

I installed the Borgeson steering box on my 69 Mach 1.  However, I have a 351W motor and 4sp trans.

As far as power steering pumps are concerned.  The Ford power steering pump doesn't create enough pressure for the Borgeson steering box to work as well as it could.  Also, I learned the hard way when overcoming the factory Z-bar issues that Borgeson's tech support will pretty much tell you what you want to hear to sell their products.  I guess what I am saying is before making the decision to purchase a Borgeson power steering box research installing the Saginaw power steering pump Borgeson sells on your Cleveland.  Plus, if you use a pump from another source and their are any issues with the steering box, thee is a very good chance Borgeson will blame the pump.  Also, get the power steering box and pump, etc. from Summit or Jegs who have good easy return policies. 

The return to center doesn't bother me at all and I have only reset the toe and centered the steering wheel on my car.  What does bother me is the Borgeson steering box is slightly taller than stock.  The result is column has to be moved up where it attaches to the floor which is simple, the holes are oversized.  But, this moves the steering wheel down closer to the seat.  With the stock 15" steering wheel, the steering wheel driving position is not as comfortable as it was before.  Also, with long legs, getting in and out of the car is difficult.

All in all, the power steering works great.  I don't know if I would do it again though.  There are always some negative aspects of any modification.  The slightly altered steering wheel position bothers me enough to think I would first try to get the stock power steering working correctly.  

The Borgeson has already been ordered so I'm kinda stuck going that direction. A friend of mine has a identical '70 Mach 1 351C w/FMX that he upgraded with the Borgeson. He hasn't experienced any issues with the stock pump. I wonder if there are differences between the 69 and 70?

Didn't know about the steering wheel placement change. I have a smaller steering wheel so hopefully that helps a bit.

 

[1969_Mach1 333]

I didn't know the steering wheel placement would change until I struggled a bit to climb out of the car for the first time after finishing the installation.  I'm not too big, 185 lb. 5'-10" tall.  Then I remembered having to move the column upward at the firewall to align it with the steering box, and realized doing so moved the steering wheel down.  You should be fine with a smaller diameter steering wheel.

I didn't try mine with a Ford power steering pump.  Borgeson told me their steering box needs 1500 psi.  My Ford service manual for the car specifies test pressures of 800 psi for the Ford power steering pump.  For that reason I installed the Saginaw power steering box Borgeson sells.  With the car parked I can turn the steering wheel lock to lock with one finger.  Extremely easy to turn and no power steering pump noise. 

[Vicfreg 771]

I used the Saginaw pump supplied by Borgeson on my 1968.  .  The supplied bracket works great on my small block.  It is my understanding that the Ford pump does not produce adequate pressure.  For my 1970, I am using a similar Saginaw pump supplied with my serpentine belt system.

Aslanefe is right about the Caster.  The one thing that will happen if you have large tires on the front is that your Caster adjustment will be limited by the size of the tire, to avoid tire scraping .  On my 1970 I am using Global West (+) 3 Upper Control Arms that have the upper ball joints moved back by design. This will allow additional Caster without causing wheel interference.

As far as the Steering Column goes, all Mustangs from 1968 up have a 2-piece steering shaft.  All you need to do is tap the rag joint plate with a hammer, and drive the inner (lower) shaft up into the outer (upper) shaft to shorten it.  Then you can adjust it down to meet the rag joint fit up required.  On my 1968, I did this from inside the engine compartment and did not have to loosen the column.  I used the Borgeson rag joint on my 1970, as I recall the shaft diameter was not the same as stock.

One thing I am going to change on my 1970 install is the length of the power steering hoses.   The ones supplied by Borgeson for a V-8 car are the correct length, but could be longer.  The length they supply does not allow any flexibility in routing away from exhaust headers.   On my '68, I have the hoses covered with DEI thermal sleeve to keep the hoses from getting too hot.   I called Borgeson about this, and they suggested ordering the 6 cylinder hoses, which are longer.   Lesson learned for me is to call the supplier first next time....  On my 1970, I am going to route hoses in the drivers side outer fenderwell, so I am headed to the local NAPA store to get some hoses made.

For steering wheels, on my '68. I am using a small (13") MG Moto Lita wheel, because I liked the look, and it makes it easier to get in and out of the car.  Even with this small wheel, it is easy to turn the wheel and steer the car.   I don't experience any real return-to-center issues when driving down the road.  I do find the steering feel on my car is definitely not "over powered", and actually feels more like easy manual steering, than really touchy power steering, which I like.  

 

[Vicfreg 771]

Oh... 1969 Mach 1 is right about the Z-bar.  On my '68, I decided to go with a cable clutch set up to avoid the interference with the steering and my Tri-Y Headers

[Rsanter 152]

Factory ford pump does not produce enough pressure or enough flow?

both are important. 

 

Pressure can be fixed by shipping the relief valve, flow cannot

[1969_Mach1 333]

Regarding collapsing the steering column, on my 1969 Mach 1 I had one issue:

First, when Ford assembles the inner and outer shafts, the inner shaft has two grooves machine in it and the outer shaft has 4 small holes that align with those grooves when assembled.  Ford injected plastic, I am guessing nylon, through those small holes filling the grooves in the inner shaft.  This lightly locks them together and stops any rattling or looseness between the inner and out shafts.

Second,  when shortening the shaft it, is easy if that plastic bond has previously been broken.  If not, it takes a fair amount of force.  I had to disassemble mine to collapse it.  If your column shaft doesn't collapse easily, I'd suggest removing the column and supporting both ends of the shaft when collapsing it to prevent damaging anything.

Third, after collapsing the steering shaft, if collapsed more then about 2" the inner and outer shafts will fit together loosely, rattle, and have play in the steering wheel.  When I raised this issue with Borgeson's support, they couldn't comprehend what I was explaining and were absolutely no help.  I even emailed them photo's of the shaft pieces disassembled.  I was able to overcome it by dimpling the inner shaft with a center punch to create a snug fit.

[Vicfreg 771]

Really good point.   I also had experience with the nylon that was squished through the hole where the 2  shafts met.  I don't recall that I needed as much as 2" on my '68.  I will keep an eye out for that on my 1970.  I had thought about using a set screw.