New MSD Distributor Help

[martiy1971 0]

I installed a new MSD ready to run distributor, Blaster 2 coil and plug wires this weekend and am having problems getting the car to run. 351 Windsor

For the dizzy,HB on TDC of the compression stroke using the thumb over the cylinder 1 sparkplug hole, then installed the dizzy with the rotor lined up directly underneath the number 1 spark plug wire. The firing order looks good, the coil is firing to all plug on the dizzy, but I can only get the car to idle extremely roughly. It sounds and looks like it is only running on 3-5 cylinders with heavy vibration and throttle will struggle revving through 1000rpm - 2000rpm, but after that it runs smoother, but still not perfect. In theory, it should be running, but its not. Looking for sugestions....

[jholmes217 65]

Don't know if this will work with an MSD, but worked great with a Accell dizzy when I couldn't get an engine to fire.  

Set it back to top dead center on number 1, then drop the dizzy back in with the rotor pointed at number 1.  Now, turn the key on, but don't crank it.  Now aim your timing light at the balancer.  Turn it slowly until clockwise until your timing light flashes.  It should fire from there, and then set the timing.  Most books from the day say to set the timing at 6 degrees, but with todays gas, seems 10 degrees or more work better now in my opinion.

[danno 128]

I would guess you have done this, but are all the plug wires going to the correct location on the disti?  Are you absolutely sure it was TDC on the compression stroke?  What if it was TDC on the exhaust stroke?   2 plug wires out of order would certainly give you these symptoms.  Did you get new cap and rotor also? If not, are you sure the ones you had are compatible with the new one?  Did you set the timing with a timing light?  Where is it at?

[1969_Mach1 333]

I also wondered what firing order is being used, the 289-302 firing order, 1-5-4-2-6-3-7-8, or the 351W firing order, 1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8.

[Shep69 149]

Could also be a 351W running a 302 cam. 

 

[DocWok 30]

Are you using a full 12 volt supply to your MSD?

If you are still using the original ignition wire it is a resistance wire and will not give you a full 12 volts, this can cause the symptoms you describe as well.

Either run a new feed wire from your ignition switch, or use the original ignition wire as the activating trigger for a relay and run your ignition from that.

[martiy1971 0]

4 hours ago, jholmes217 said:

Don't know if this will work with an MSD, but worked great with a Accell dizzy when I couldn't get an engine to fire.  

Set it back to top dead center on number 1, then drop the dizzy back in with the rotor pointed at number 1.  Now, turn the key on, but don't crank it.  Now aim your timing light at the balancer.  Turn it slowly until clockwise until your timing light flashes.  It should fire from there, and then set the timing.  Most books from the day say to set the timing at 6 degrees, but with todays gas, seems 10 degrees or more work better now in my opinion.

This sounds like a possibility. 

[martiy1971 0]

57 minutes ago, DocWok said:

Are you using a full 12 volt supply to your MSD?

If you are still using the original ignition wire it is a resistance wire and will not give you a full 12 volts, this can cause the symptoms you describe as well.

Either run a new feed wire from your ignition switch, or use the original ignition wire as the activating trigger for a relay and run your ignition from that.

It likely is the original ignition wire. Is it a matter of wire quality, or should one run from another point in the ignition if there is one? Or does one need to buy a msd igniton box now? Everything else is MSD so it's possible that it could be a weak link. If so which ignition box would you recommend?

[DocWok 30]

Don't worry, your MSD ignition box should still be fine.

If you are using the original ignition wire to supply power to your ignition box, then that may be your problem.

As mention above, you need to do either of the 2 options suggested to supply a full 12 volts to your ignition box.

You can by-pass the resistance wire from your ignition switch up the the junction block that goes through your firewall. ( check the Ford wiring diagram - I think it is the Pink wire).

Or install a relay to supply the 12 volts to your ignition box using the the Red-Green wire that used to go to your (+) coil as the activator for the relay, if you do this no need to by-pass the resistance wire, do which ever may be easier for you.

If you don't feel confident to do it yourself, maybe you could try and fine someone who is experienced to assist you.

[martiy1971 0]

So if I understand correctly options are

1. Bypass old resistance wire (pink) and junction box that currently goes to + on new coil with a new wire directly from a full 12v starter source? Basically cut in before and after junction box?

2. Or get a new starter relay and wire inline on the resistance wire currently supplied to + on coil? Does this mean I can remove existing starter relay? If so, any suggestions for starter relays?

 

appreciate the help gents 

[1969_Mach1 333]

I am guessing your car does not have a factory tach?  For an non factory tach car the resistance wire starts at the ignition switch.  It is about 4 feet long, taped into the under dash harness and ends at the 3 terminal wire harness connector near the firewall on the drivers side in the engine compartment.  This is the connector that feeds the oil and water temp gauges, and the original ignition coil.  Most people find the resistor wire at the ignition switch and splice in a new non resistor wire.  At the three terminal connector near the firewall on the drivers side in the engine compartment, it should be the terminal that has two wires going into If.  One wire is the resistor wire and the other wire is a bypass wire from the starter relay during that supplies 12V to the ignition during cranking only.  After it is finished, you need to keep that 12V bypass wire from the starter relay connected.  Otherwise, during crank there will be no power to the coil and distributor.  If Midlife chimes in he can tell you exactly what terminal it is in the ignition switch where the resistor wire starts..

[danno 128]

4 hours ago, martiy1971 said:

So if I understand correctly options are

1. Bypass old resistance wire (pink) and junction box that currently goes to + on new coil with a new wire directly from a full 12v starter source? Basically cut in before and after junction box?

2. Or get a new starter relay and wire inline on the resistance wire currently supplied to + on coil? Does this mean I can remove existing starter relay? If so, any suggestions for starter relays?

 

appreciate the help gents 

For #1,  yes.  Bypass the resistance wire from the coil to the battery directly and see if the problem goes away.  Just stick a piece of wire in there temporarily to see if it solves the problem. If it does, then we work on the solution. 

[Midlife 814]

8 hours ago, 1969_Mach1 said:

I am guessing your car does not have a factory tach?  For an non factory tach car the resistance wire starts at the ignition switch.  It is about 4 feet long, taped into the under dash harness and ends at the 3 terminal wire harness connector near the firewall on the drivers side in the engine compartment.  This is the connector that feeds the oil and water temp gauges, and the original ignition coil.  Most people find the resistor wire at the ignition switch and splice in a new non resistor wire.  At the three terminal connector near the firewall on the drivers side in the engine compartment, it should be the terminal that has two wires going into If.  One wire is the resistor wire and the other wire is a bypass wire from the starter relay during that supplies 12V to the ignition during cranking only.  After it is finished, you need to keep that 12V bypass wire from the starter relay connected.  Otherwise, during crank there will be no power to the coil and distributor.  If Midlife chimes in he can tell you exactly what terminal it is in the ignition switch where the resistor wire starts..

The 69 and 70 ignition switches are very different.  For a 69 non-tach dash, look for a pin that has two wires: the pink resistor wire and a green/red wire.  Splice your bypass wire into the green/red wire and then into a brown wire that goes to the outside female pin on the 3 pin engine gauge feed plug.  The brown wire runs back to the back of the fuse box so best to splice it before it runs through the firewall grommet.  Cut the pink resistor wire a couple of inches from the ignition plug and cover both ends with shrink tubing to be safe.

For a 70, the splice location at the ignition switch is the same, except now the brown wire is located past the firewall grommet, which makes it a PITA to thread the bypass wire through the firewall grommet. 

[martiy1971 0]

Good news, the distributor and coil are in and working perfectly! And thanks for all the help guys! 

It was as a few of you suggested, I ran an alternate 12v ignition power and tied it into the line upstream of the starter relay, and it was like a night and day difference. I just have to play a bit with the springs, and figure out the best curve for the car now. I seemed to get the best vacuum (15in/hg) at idle with about 15deg advance, 21deg mechanical and whatever the vacuum advance produces. Would more mechanical, and less advance be better, or is it overall that matters most and doesn't matter how you get there? The spring combination I have right now starts advancing around 1000rpm and is fully advanced by 2500rpm. It's a medium and light spring combo rather than the two heavy bastards that come on it.