Cooling Fan Options

[barnett468 418]

Max power, if you still have low speed cooling problems once you resolve your fan/shroud relationship problem, you can try over driving the fan with a smaller water pump pulley. This will spin the fan and pump slightly faster at all speeds, however, mechanical fans can come apart at high rpm although I have never heard of a 1717p failing but there is always that risk. Increasing fan speed will also reduce hp slightly

[Max Power 74]

14 hours ago, danno said:

Barnett and MaxPower 

I appreciate discussions from both of you.  This is all valuable interesting facts that someone like me needs to consider for my own difficulties.  Everyone needs to consider the comments of others with a lot of leeway; they certainly do with me.   I have made my share of misunderstood comments here. 

MaxPower, consider any comments as they are appropriate to you.  I realized the overbore by 0.060 is not a part of the issue, and what is done is done. We work with it and move on.  The issue is solving your heat issue with what you have. That is the challenge we all want because (like me) your solution can help us. 

I have several fans from U-pull over the years of collection. If you want to try one, or measure what I have, I can stop by. 

Thanks Danno, appreciate it. Unfortunately, unless I raise the engine, I am limited to a 17" fan at present, so bigger fans like the BB clutch fan mentioned won't really fit, as they will hit the tranny cooling lines at the bottom. I bought the fan from Flexalite that Barnett listed a while ago. Went for a test fit last night, and the blades protrude too far forward on the radiator side and hit the radiator, so now I have a shorter spacer ordered from NPD, which won't be here until next week. I am hoping this fan will pull just enough more air where the gap in my shroud matters less. This problem really only occurs on warm days stuck in traffic, I am trying not to spend hundreds of dollars here to solve a twice a year problem. The best true fix would be to convert to a 3G alternator and a Contour fan setup, but that is a lot of messing around for how little I have this problem. That's why I am taking the "fan with better pull" approach first. And frankly, if I can't fix the way it is now, I can drive around it, to some extent.

Do you hit any of the local shows? If so, which car is yours? I hit North St Paul fairly often, Anoka once a year, sometimes Hastings, and all the fairground shows.

[Max Power 74]

15 hours ago, barnett468 said:

It's clear to me that you don't know a lot about how to cool an engine otherwise you wouldn't be here asking for help and you would not have used a 160 t stat which mid life even told you was too low. That is not intended to be an insult it is merely an observation that you seem to be unaware of as evidenced by your comments to me. Your ASE cert was hard earned and the training gives you a great knowledge base but it still does not qualify as a thermal or fluid dynamics expert so I really don't know why you mentioned that.

I am in fact far more knowledgeable about cooling an engine than around 99% of the people out there which is why i spent my time trying to help you but you continually contradict what I say with wrong information which is only going to confuse others that have similar problems. Just because you asked about a fan, it does NOT mean that you are asking the right question. People constantly ask the wrong question which is why I often post things that may seem unrelated to those that aren't familiar with them. Also, there is no substitute for first hand experience, especially over 40 years worth of it, therefore, it might be to your benefit to listen instead of argue with nearly everything I post.

Again, that fan I suggested that you bought will likely NOT completely fix your problem even if you have a shroud and the fan is properly located in it with the proper spacing but hopefully it will at least help it enough to prevent problems.

 

 

 

Alright, I will give this one more shot since none of it seems to be getting through. After this I am done, as I am sure the moderators would rather not have these sorts of "discussions"

I mentioned that I passed my ASE Master in 82 as a way of telling you that you  are NOT the only one doing this for 40 years, as you have mentioned on this forum many many times, especially if your advice is challenged. While usually good,  sometimes, your advice is not above being challenged.

You don't need a degree in fluid dynamics to understand how cooling systems work. The thermostat sets the floor for the cooling system, not the ceiling. You say that by having a thermostat open at 160, it's too early, and being always open, the coolant is flowing too fast to properly cool. OK, fair enough in theory, although you have to disregard that the thermostat also acts as a restrictor plate even wide open, unlike completely removing it. But lets say I am stuck in traffic. Things start to heat up. I have a stat that either opens at 160 or 180, you pick. As I am heating up, the car is now running 195. The stat is now wide open, regardless of which one you picked. And it is still getting warmer. And it keeps going. So tell me, in that situation, what possible difference does it make if the stat opened at 160 or 180, when at any temp above that opening temp, it stays pinned wide open and I am STILL getting hotter? The stat sets the floor, I am bouncing off the ceiling. If, by your theory, stat wide open flows too fast to properly cool, how does a 180 stat solve that problem above temps of 180? The argument that a 160 stat flows too much to be effective is fair, if you expect the car to run at 160, which it may not, but it really has no bearing on a car that is running up to 220 at idle. While 160 stats are a band aid, they really don't cause cars to overheat at that level, because if cars are running up to 225, a 180 stat or a 195 stat cant change that. They are wide open too.

Being more specific about your complaint that I am contradicting you...... You are telling me my 160 stat flows too much, not allowing the coolant to stay on the radiator long enough to cool (debatable, as a stat is a restriction by design, by engineers who have no interest in outflowing a radiator's cooling abilities), yet your other recommendations are a 180 High Flow stat, a new High Flow water pump, and now, a reduced sized pulley (which would also increase the speed of the water pump creating high flow.) Is it me that is contradicting you or is it YOU that is contradicting you?

Telling you that I wont use water wetter is not an argument against water wetter, it's a reality of living in Minnesota. That's not a contradiction. We need 50% anti-freeze here.

Even you don't believe 3 degrees in timing will have any profound effect.

.060 over? Not a problem at any speed above 10mph. I am sorry if you see that is a contradiction, but that is what is happening. I realize .060 creates more heat, but for me it has not been an issue when there is airflow.

The reason I am only asking which fans pull more air is because in my situation, that it the right question to ask. The car flat out does not over heat anything 10mph and above, indicating that all of your non air flow related responses are not really relevant to the issue at hand. None of them are a problem when air is moving through the radiator. And at idle, clearly I do not have enough air moving through the radiator.

The lower than normal drive train is the biggest issue, which I stated in the OP. My solutions could be....1. Get a better pulling fan and it will be enough to get by,.... 2. Find a way to raise the drive train to make the fan line up, making better use of the shroud, or 3. Upgrade to an electric fan system and the subsequent charging system upgrades to run it.

I am starting with option 1, which circling back, is exactly the question I posed in the first place.

[barnett468 418]

First of all, everything you post is "getting through" which is exactly why I know your understanding of cooling systems is not nearly as extensive as mine.

Contrary to what you may have read or heard, a higher temp t stat can sometimes prevent or slow the onset of "thermal runaway", this is a FACT, not a theory as you implied it was, therefore, your comment regarding that is an opinion or misinformation/incomplete info that you got elsewhere which you are merely repeating as opposed to a fact. It would take way too long to explain it so I'm not going to do that. Irregardless, even if you did not have an overheating problem, a 160 t stat does in fact increase the rate at which an engine wears and reduces fuel economy over a hotter t stat, therefore, unless you are racing and need to get every last hp that you can out of it, there is absolutely no upside to using a 160 t stat in a street engine.

Yes, a degree in thermal dynamics and/or fluid dynamics is definitely absolutely necessary to have a COMPLETE understanding of how a cooling system works. I have a bit of understanding in both which is exactly why I know that there is far more to know then both you and I currently do. This does not mean that people that do not have either of these degrees are incapable of designing systems that will work.

As far as setting the timing to the optimum level, just because I stated that in your particular case it would likely not significantly reduce your engines cooling requirements, that is no reason or excuse not to set it to its optimum level anyway if it currently isn't since any improvement in cooling and/or performance etc is a benefit, and this one might not cost more than a few dollars to do. Also, several small changes add up and cumulatively can make a fairly noticeable difference, and since your problem sounds minor based on your last explanation of it, it seems logical to me to try them since they are simple and inexpensive to do. 

Nothing I post ever contradicts itself, it is only your lack of understanding of the big picture that prevents you from realizing that and I don't have time to write a page long detailed explanation of why the things I suggest will have a particular affect etc. I have given you a large amount of info already and there is even more than that so do what ever you want with it, there is no point in me repeating it.

As I mentioned, I get engines to run at 185 degrees in 100 plus degree temps with the ac on. In fact, I told the moderator RPM how to fix his car with his ignition timing. He did what I said and it is fixed. Your years of experience are clearly not in this area but mine are. Not everyone has the same experience or knows the same thing. I certainly don't know anything about brain surgery or nuclear physics but I have been fixing overheating problems since around 1972 and have fixed several hundred of them and that is not an exaggeration. I was partners in the biggest Mustang shop in the Western US and I fixed all the overheating problems that came in the door for 20 years. I have also discussed cooling system design with the owners of Griffen, US Radiator, and Matsons over the 30 plus years that I have dealt with them. In addition to fixing cars for a living for many years, I was also a project engineer at Kawasaki Motors  where I ran the R and D department for several years and had to deal with many cooling issues on various vehicles there as well, some of which were national and world championship caliber professional racing vehicles.

[Axiomatic 1]

Greetings Max Power,

My post is of the FWIW variety. I'm new to the forum and to Mustang ownership. Mine is a '69 Sportsroof. It originally came with a 302/FMX that was traded out for a 351W/C4. I do not know when that work was done or any other details of the engine. At this point all I know about the engine is that it isn't stock!

One of the first things I noticed as I went about assessing my cars condition and prioritizing repairs was that the radiator shroud was broken - and pretty apparently from impact by the fan. I purchased a replacement from CJ Pony and gave it a close visual inspection upon its arrival. It is virtually identical in dimensions to the original part. I installed it and upon powering up noticed the "tick tick" of the fan hitting the shroud. I took everything apart and double-checked verifying that I had assembled everything correctly. I called CJ Pony and was assured that I have purchased the correct shroud. I removed it again and then removed the radiator and inspected the radiator support - no indications of damage or modification. I put everything back together (again!), this time putting as much downward pressure as possible on the shroud. It didn't make a lick of difference.

So I modified the shroud by slotting the bolt openings. it didn't take much and now the fan doesn't hit the shroud. This is not what I would call optimal or permanent. There is obviously something wrong here but as a new owner, I am still in the "sorting things out" stage.

The picture you posted is identical to the condition of my car. The fan sits too low inside the shroud. It also doesn't extend far enough into the shroud. I could modify that but any attempt to extend the fan would only nullify the modifications I've made.

My car runs at a gauge -indicated slightly above midpoint going down the road, but will drift into the danger zone if I get stuck in heavy stop n go traffic. My current intention is to add an  electric pusher fan to assist in those heavy traffic moments. I have followed this thread very carefully and it has given me food for thought on other things to check and test before going down that particular path. In my modest opinion the relationship of the fan to the shroud is the primary culprit for the failure of the car to maintain proper temperature control. I am open to the possibility of other factors being contributory.

My post is by way of saying that your circumstance is not an isolated one. I wish you luck in your pursuit of a solution and strongly suspect that it will also be the solution to mine.

thanks for reading,

Axio

[barnett468 418]

3 hours ago, Axiomatic said:

One of the first things I noticed as I went about assessing my cars condition and prioritizing repairs was that the radiator shroud was broken - and pretty apparently from impact by the fan.
My car runs at a gauge -indicated slightly above midpoint going down the road, but will drift into the danger zone if I get stuck in heavy stop n go traffic. My current intention is to add an  electric pusher fan to assist in those heavy traffic moments.

A shroud is not always a necessity. Yes this may complicate the discussion a bit and I didn't want to mention it earlier as it would not have been of benefit to the op in his particular case, however, I figured I would mention it now just as general info and yet another example of there being way more to cooling systems then most people realize.

1969 and 1970 Boss 429's do not have a shroud.

 

.

 

 

 

[ashleesmach1 28]

On 8/1/2017 at 10:09 PM, Max Power said:

Then why does it cool down just fine on the highway after running hot in traffic? Water never flows faster than with a wide open high flow stat at 3500 rpm on the highway, and it cools down great there. You would think that if coolant was flowing too fast to cool, it would also occur on the highway. Also, wouldn't recommending a high flow water pump as above just exacerbate that issue?

The DEI radiator relief is the additive I mentioned earlier, I just looked it up and recognized the bottle. It made no measurable difference. Unfortunately, in Minneapolis, unless you have a heated garage, that formula you listed will freeze. I don't want to flush and fill every spring and fall. We use 50/50 up here because we need it.

Here is the gap for the fan at the top, by the way. It measures three inches at the top with barely an inch to clear. I could lower the shroud mounting on the radiator by drilling new mounting points, but then the shroud would hit the tranny lines and lower rad hose.

it appears you have the wrong motor mounts for your engine. check on this.

[mqu02 30]

Max Power:  I had the exact same problem as you with the motor (351W) being low in my '69, but my car had been hit at an early point in its life, which may or may not have caused the problem.  I ended up making 4 spacers in a lathe that were (approximately) 3/8" tall, then installed them between the engine mount & block with respectively longer bolts.  I looked things over for about an hour before I determined I had to solve the problem with a motor height adjustment, and I also know the difference between the different factory engine mounts (I had the right ones).  With the projected angle of the engine it moved the fan up the distance I needed and kept me from having a fan interference issue with the factory shroud.  I am also using the factory 24" wide heavy duty cooling package 351W radiator, and I substituted a Ford C9WE-C clutched fan, which was the factory fan for a '69 351W Cougar w/ac.  I have never had close to a problem with heat on this car, and it has AC as well.  I picked that fan because it had good cooling capability, and having a clutch, robbed a lot less horsepower vs. a fixed blade fan.

Here is the same fan I have, but you can find them a lot cheaper with a little searching/patience:  http://www.ebay.com/itm/H-C9WE-C-1969-Mercury-Cougar-7-Blade-cooling-351-fan-w-A-C-/322644573929?hash=item4b1f1d7ee9:g:JbMAAOSwFM1Zc-N4&vxp=mtr