Cooling Fan Options

[Max Power 74]

69 Fastback, a factory 351w H code with FMX auto. Today it is .060 over, 398ci stroker kit, Edelbrock heads, roller cam conversion, Hedman shorties, 750 Holley....the predictable stuff.

When sitting in traffic, the needle steadily climbs into the H range on the factory gauge. I have a 160 high flow stat, stock water pump, factory shroud, and what looks like a 5 blade 17" flex fan of unknown aftermarket origin. Going down the highway with my 24" ACP aluminum radiator, it hardly gets pas the "E" in Temp. Get stuck in traffic, slowly crawls up to H past Temp.

I would like to find a mechanical solution, although there is a bit of a rub. The engine in my chassis seems to sit low. When using the repro shroud, my fan blades hit the shroud at the bottom, and have a lot of clearance at the top. As such, I have to cut out a section at the bottom so the fan will clear. The fan blades come within an inch of my tranny cooling lines. I don't have convertible motor mounts. I really would like to avoid electric fans, as I don't want to re-wire the car and add modern electric to power it. I can think of two solutions:

1. Upgrade the mechanical fan without increasing size. Does this sound like an option? Are factory fans styles better at pulling air than aftermarket flex fans? Are there better flex fans out there? Would converting to a clutch fan work better?

2. Get an electric pusher fan, wire it directly to a toggle switch and manually turn it on when stuck in traffic. I have seen people do this and they say it works. That amount of selective load, running straight off the battery, probably wouldn't tax my charging/wiring system too much. Seems ghetto, but, ya know....

Thoughts on how I can make my system better?

[Midlife 814]

First off, I'd ditch the 160* thermostat and get a least a 180* if not 195*.  The thermostat sets the floor for your water coolant, but more importantly, allows the water to sit in the radiator and cool down before going into the engine.  With a 160* thermostat, the thermostat is open all of the time and water simply circulates without stopping. 

Your symptoms are indicative of poor air flow from the fan.  At speed, the fan is pretty much useless as the airflow through the radiator is controlled by the car's speed.

[jholmes217 65]

Post a picture that shows your fan.  I'm thinking that the fan, and the 160 degree thermostat are the problem.  I overheated in a parade from the slow, stop and go traffic last summer.  I ditched the flex fan and went with a reproduction clutch fan, and it is much better.  It pulls so much air that if you put a sheet of cardboard on the front of the radiator, it sticks.  For a test, I had it idle in the garage for 20 minutes so there would be little to no air circulation, and it stayed pretty cool.

[barnett468 418]

is your ignition timing set to its optimum level?

what is your coolant ratio?

where do you live?

I would get a high flow water pump from flowkooler or eddy.

you should use a milodon brass 180 t stat with a high flow pump.

a 1717p flex a lite fixed fan is about the best mechanical setup you can get.

i would resolve the engine problem as well and check the drive shaft angles.

look in the top of the rad at the tubes and see if there are chunks of rust stuck in any of them.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Max Power 74]

12 hours ago, barnett468 said:

is your ignition timing set to its optimum level?

12 degrees advanced at idle

what is your coolant ratio?

50/50 with an additive

where do you live?

Minneapolis

I would get a high flow water pump from flowkooler or eddy.

Thought about that....

you should use a milodon brass 180 t stat with a high flow pump.

Thought about that as well.

a 1717p flex a lite fixed fan is about the best mechanical setup you can get.

Good to know, I have a buddy at Jegs, might just order one today. Will this perform better than the clutch fan option listed above?

i would resolve the engine problem as well and check the drive shaft angles.

Not quire sure how to do that other than adjustable mounts.

look in the top of the rad at the tubes and see if there are chunks of rust stuck in any of them.

Brand new ACP radiator, motor has maybe 1000 miles on it. It's all clean.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Max Power 74]

15 hours ago, Midlife said:

First off, I'd ditch the 160* thermostat and get a least a 180* if not 195*.  The thermostat sets the floor for your water coolant, but more importantly, allows the water to sit in the radiator and cool down before going into the engine.  With a 160* thermostat, the thermostat is open all of the time and water simply circulates without stopping. 

Your symptoms are indicative of poor air flow from the fan.  At speed, the fan is pretty much useless as the airflow through the radiator is controlled by the car's speed.

As long as there is a thermostat in there, it should not flow beyond that radiators ability to cool. They have the proper restrictions built into them, even wide open. Removing the stat completely, you are absolutely correct. If I pulled the stat out completely, I would expect to overheat on the highway as well.

[Max Power 74]

13 hours ago, jholmes217 said:

Post a picture that shows your fan.  I'm thinking that the fan, and the 160 degree thermostat are the problem.  I overheated in a parade from the slow, stop and go traffic last summer.  I ditched the flex fan and went with a reproduction clutch fan, and it is much better.  It pulls so much air that if you put a sheet of cardboard on the front of the radiator, it sticks.  For a test, I had it idle in the garage for 20 minutes so there would be little to no air circulation, and it stayed pretty cool.

I will attempt a fan pic tonight. Do you have a link to the clutch fan assembly you went with? I think either this or the Flex a lite that Barnett listed might be a big improvement.

[barnett468 418]

12 degrees doesn't mean your timing is at the optimum level. if you do not know how to determine that i can tell you later tonight.

 

if you use a clutch fan you should use a heavy duty one. clutch fans do not spin at a 1 to 1 ratio.

 

 

 

[Max Power 74]

47 minutes ago, barnett468 said:

12 degrees doesn't mean your timing is at the optimum level. if you do not know how to determine that i can tell you later tonight.

 

if you use a clutch fan you should use a heavy duty one. clutch fans do not spin at a 1 to 1 ratio.

 

 

 

I don't have my curve chart handy at the moment. I can tell you that I was running 6 degrees advanced for years on both the last build of this motor and this build with the same curve. The old 351 build ran fine, it was mostly stock. When I built the stroker out of it and had to go .060 over is when it started to run hotter around town, understandable given the increased displacement and maximum bore. Due to a little bit of detonation, I decided to start using a couple gallons of 110 octane in with my 93, and bumped initial up to 12. That brought some of the old snort back, but through all that, the cooling system has been behaving exactly the same.

I ordered that fan you recommended just now, should be able to put it on this weekend.

When I upgraded to the aluminum radiator last fall, it did run a bit cooler on the highway, but around town didn't change, confirming that this is more of an airflow at idle problem than anything else, I suspect.

[barnett468 418]

It is not necessarily only an air flow problem. A high flow pump will help and if your engine idles slightly higher if you advance the timing around 3 more degrees, this will help also but if you have detonation now, you need to modify your curve to reduce the advance at higher rpms.

Also, using 20% green anti freeze plus 1.5 times the recommended amount of DEI Radiator Relief and the rest water, preferably demineralized, that will also help.

The 160 t stat is too low as well as midlife mentioned.

just because it says 160, it does not mean it will keep your system at 160 as you already found out . your t stat is always open at low speed preventing the water from being cooled so it simply keeps getting hotter as it freely circulates.

 

 

 

[Max Power 74]

4 hours ago, barnett468 said:

It is not necessarily only an air flow problem. A high flow pump will help and if your engine idles slightly higher if you advance the timing around 3 more degrees, this will help also but if you have detonation now, you need to modify your curve to reduce the advance at higher rpms.

Also, using 20% green anti freeze plus 1.5 times the recommended amount of DEI Radiator Relief and the rest water, preferably demineralized, that will also help.

The 160 t stat is too low as well as midlife mentioned.

just because it says 160, it does not mean it will keep your system at 160 as you already found out . your t stat is always open at low speed preventing the water from being cooled so it simply keeps getting hotter as it freely circulates.

 

 

 

Then why does it cool down just fine on the highway after running hot in traffic? Water never flows faster than with a wide open high flow stat at 3500 rpm on the highway, and it cools down great there. You would think that if coolant was flowing too fast to cool, it would also occur on the highway. Also, wouldn't recommending a high flow water pump as above just exacerbate that issue?

The DEI radiator relief is the additive I mentioned earlier, I just looked it up and recognized the bottle. It made no measurable difference. Unfortunately, in Minneapolis, unless you have a heated garage, that formula you listed will freeze. I don't want to flush and fill every spring and fall. We use 50/50 up here because we need it.

Here is the gap for the fan at the top, by the way. It measures three inches at the top with barely an inch to clear. I could lower the shroud mounting on the radiator by drilling new mounting points, but then the shroud would hit the tranny lines and lower rad hose.

[danno 128]

I have several fans and clutches I can bring over some night. These are ones that I got at u-pull as spares.  If one works as a replacement, you can have it.  I have a 6 blade and a 7 blade fan, both with a clutch.  I can bring them over some night maybe next week and you can see if one will work.  Maybe try them out and see what you think. No cost. 

[Max Power 74]

12 hours ago, danno said:

I have several fans and clutches I can bring over some night. These are ones that I got at u-pull as spares.  If one works as a replacement, you can have it.  I have a 6 blade and a 7 blade fan, both with a clutch.  I can bring them over some night maybe next week and you can see if one will work.  Maybe try them out and see what you think. No cost. 

Awesome Danno, very kind offer. I have the fan that Barnett recommended on the way, lets see how that works first.

The reason I started this thread as "Cooling Fan Options" is because I am pretty convinced I have an airflow problem at idle. This car shows no signs of running hot at all when there is demonstrate-able airflow through the radiator. ie 15mph on up. While all the other suggestions are well intentioned and can't be ruled out completely, given how comfortable the car is running at any sort of speed, I don't think 3 degrees timing or water wetter or high flow water pumps or even thermostats are my immediate problem. (I did buy a 180 stat as a next step should the fan make no difference.)

The thing that baffles me most is how low the engine sits in relation to the radiator. I have never had a 69/70 like it, the car has never been hit, had a down to the shell resto with everything checking out, I am using standard motor mounts and factory radiator mounts. It just doesn't make a lot of sense. In the grand scheme, I should just convert to electrics and just be done with it, but I am stubbornly fighting it tooth and nail. More as developments occur.

[barnett468 418]

been doing this daily for a living for 40 years.  i can make cars run at 185 all day long in 100 degree heat with the ac on. you can do what i suggest or not. dei radiator relief DOES WORK, but it works far better if you run 20% antifreeze compared to 50%, but it alone will not fix your problem . also, unless you ran 1.5 times the recommended amount, it will not work nearly as well.

the gap is way too big. it should have no ore than around 1 1/2 inch around the outside which you can not get with your shroud or engine out of position which is why i said to raise it up. the fan should be around 1/3rd to 1/2 way in.

also, boring your engine to .060 plus using a stroker crank in it is a big contributor to the problem and an extremely unwise thing to do. i never use .060 over engines unless it is a thick wall fe block or something.

all i can say is good luck cuz that fan alone will NOT fix your problem . i guarantee it.

[Max Power 74]

Yes, the gap is too big, which I said from the start. It is a big part of my airflow problem, which is why I also stated that probably a full electric fan setup is probably the ultimate solution, given no simple explanation for fixing the air gaps.

Interested in reasonable solutions to raising the entire drive train 2". Nothing comes to immediate mind.

.060 wasn't ideal, but it was already .040 over and a head gasket ring scored the cylinder wall enough that I needed to go .060. I did have it sonic checked and it cleared, but I understand the extra load I am putting on the cooling system. Not an issue at anything with proper airflow, though....

[danno 128]

I just cannot imagine how your entire drive train could be  2 inches low?  Are the motor mounts low?  If they are, maybe spacers would bring the engine up?  I could bring my car over some night and we could do chassis to chassis measurements to see where the differences are. 

[barnett468 418]

On 8/2/2017 at 9:41 AM, Max Power said:

Yes, the gap is too big, which I said from the start. It is a big part of my airflow problem, which is why I also stated that probably a full electric fan setup is probably the ultimate solution, given no simple explanation for fixing the air gaps.

Interested in reasonable solutions to raising the entire drive train 2". Nothing comes to immediate mind.

.060 wasn't ideal, but it was already .040 over and a head gasket ring scored the cylinder wall enough that I needed to go .060. I did have it sonic checked and it cleared, but I understand the extra load I am putting on the cooling system. Not an issue at anything with proper airflow, though....

you need to determine by yourself if your radiator his too high or your engine is too low or both. that is not something we can do for you over the internet. then you need to fix which ever one is the actual problem unless you run electric fans.

you can adjust the engine height to some degree with ron morris adjustable mounts.

no you did NOT "need" to go .060 . you could have had a sleeve installed or got another block. it's that simple but you choose not to do either of those things.

saying the sonic check "cleared" means absolutely nothing . post the test results and i will tell you if it is acceptable or not.

yes the bore size DOES has a direct affect on how much air you need to flow through your radiator.

 

 

 

 

 

[Max Power 74]

9 hours ago, barnett468 said:

you need to determine by yourself if your radiator his too high or your engine is too low or both. that is not something we can do for you over the internet. then you need to fix which ever one is the actual problem unless you run electric fans.

you can adjust the engine height to some degree with ron morris adjustable mounts.

no you did NOT "need" to go .060 . you could have had a sleeve installed or got another block. it's that simple but you choose not to do either of those things.

saying the sonic check "cleared" means absolutely nothing . post the test results and i will tell you if it is acceptable or not.

yes the bore size DOES has a direct affect on how much air you need to flow through your radiator.

it is blatantly obvious to me that you really have not got the faintest idea what you are talking about and contradicting what i say with inaccurate statements and being argumentative ain't gonna help you one bit,  so you really just need to do whatever you have convinced yourself is right.

 

 

 

 

Interesting. I passed my ASE Master in 1982. You seem to have a general assumption that everyone here has no idea how things work. The initial question was simple. I wanted to know what people were running for fans. I asked that because my car shows absolutely no signs of running warm at any speeds above 10mph, when there is adequate airflow. It's very simple to see that I need to improve my airflow through the radiator at idle. In spite of this, you tell me I need to bump timing 3 degrees. You tell me I need to run 15% anti-freeze after I have told you I live in Minneapolis and my garage is not heated. You tell me I should sleeve rather the .060, as if 8 sleeves in a 351w block makes any sense at all. On top of that, you tell me I need a 180 stat because my 160 "flows too much" and in the next breath you recommend a high flow water pump. You are pretty much telling me all sorts of things that I didn't ask about. This combo runs just fine with decent airflow through the radiator. Period. That's why I asked about fan options.

For big block Fords, as you know the radiator has frame mounts below and a saddle mount. It's pretty hard to lower the radiator below the frame that is it's foundation. I also never stated that bore size DOES NOT have any effect on cooling requirements. I have no idea where you got that notion.

Frankly, I am sick of your condescending and arrogant attitude to just about everybody here. Feel free to no longer "help". Make sure you remind people how experienced you are on the way out of this thread's door.

[jholmes217 65]

On 8/1/2017 at 8:44 AM, Max Power said:

I will attempt a fan pic tonight. Do you have a link to the clutch fan assembly you went with? I think either this or the Flex a lite that Barnett listed might be a big improvement.

My car is a original Q code 428, so I went with this one.  http://www2.cougarpartscatalog.com/c909fan.html?attribs=88  I bought it at CJ Pony Parts, but I don't think they carry it anymore.  You could try Jegs or Summit Racing, and find one that will fit inside your shroud that is similar.

My 428 is bored .060, and runs pretty cool now with that clutch fan.  In my case, I'm running this engine block as is since it was in the car already bored .060, but with hardly any ridge at the top.  This is a 1966 "A scratch" 428 block, so is not original to the car.  I honed it, had everything balanced, then rebuilt it in my garage.  I will run this block until I find a good date appropriate "C scratch" block for my car so I can drive and enjoy it.  I see nothing wrong with running a .060 bored motor if that is what you have.  It will tend to run hotter.  I would be looking for a new block, as I wouldn't go more than .060, and it's not really a good option to sleeve all eight cylinders. 

Ceramic coated headers help with the under hood heat too if you don't have them.  Good luck getting it down to better temps.

[Bob & Sue 110]

I posted about WCCC having a 20% off sale on all cooling system parts with code COOL17 in another thread I started earlier today.

Scroll down to the video on the bottom Don does a good explanation on the +/- of our old cars & how some of the parts work & don't work maybe there is a solution.

I do run an electric push thru radiator fan with a toggle on/off switch under the dash I only run it when in traffic jams. I'll be putting the upgraded air conditioning in this winter so I'll need to reconfigure my fan & trans cooler. I'm running a stock FOMOCO 20" 3 row radiator it should of had the 24" from the factory.

https://secure.cougarpartscatalog.com/379.html 

Edit: I DID SLEEP AT A HOLIDAY INN A COUPLE MONTHS AGO

[barnett468 418]

3 hours ago, jholmes217 said:

My car is a original Q code 428, so I went with this one.  http://www2.cougarpartscatalog.com/c909fan.html?attribs=88  I bought it at CJ Pony Parts, but I don't think they carry it anymore.

I can still get that fan with the correct numbers stamped on it for a 428 with ac and I can get the heavy duty clutch that is nearly identical to the original.

[barnett468 418]

On 8/3/2017 at 7:00 AM, Max Power said:

Interesting. I passed my ASE Master in 1982. You seem to have a general assumption that everyone here has no idea how things work. The initial question was simple. I wanted to know what people were running for fans. I asked that because my car shows absolutely no signs of running warm at any speeds above 10mph, when there is adequate airflow. It's very simple to see that I need to improve my airflow through the radiator at idle. In spite of this, you tell me I need to bump timing 3 degrees. You tell me I need to run 15% anti-freeze after I have told you I live in Minneapolis and my garage is not heated. You tell me I should sleeve rather the .060, as if 8 sleeves in a 351w block makes any sense at all. On top of that, you tell me I need a 180 stat because my 160 "flows too much" and in the next breath you recommend a high flow water pump. You are pretty much telling me all sorts of things that I didn't ask about. This combo runs just fine with decent airflow through the radiator. Period. That's why I asked about fan options.

For big block Fords, as you know the radiator has frame mounts below and a saddle mount. It's pretty hard to lower the radiator below the frame that is it's foundation. I also never stated that bore size DOES NOT have any effect on cooling requirements. I have no idea where you got that notion.

Frankly, I am sick of your condescending and arrogant attitude to just about everybody here. Feel free to no longer "help". Make sure you remind people how experienced you are on the way out of this thread's door.

It's clear to me that you don't know a lot about how to cool an engine otherwise you wouldn't be here asking for help and you would not have used a 160 t stat which mid life even told you was too low. That is not intended to be an insult it is merely an observation that you seem to be unaware of as evidenced by your comments to me. Your ASE cert was hard earned and the training gives you a great knowledge base but it still does not qualify as a thermal or fluid dynamics expert so I really don't know why you mentioned that.

I am in fact far more knowledgeable about cooling an engine than around 99% of the people out there which is why i spent my time trying to help you but you continually contradict what I say with wrong information which is only going to confuse others that have similar problems. Just because you asked about a fan, it does NOT mean that you are asking the right question. People constantly ask the wrong question which is why I often post things that may seem unrelated to those that aren't familiar with them. Also, there is no substitute for first hand experience, especially over 40 years worth of it, therefore, it might be to your benefit to listen instead of argue with nearly everything I post.

Again, that fan I suggested that you bought will likely NOT completely fix your problem even if you have a shroud and the fan is properly located in it with the proper spacing but hopefully it will at least help it enough to prevent problems.

 

 

 

[danno 128]

Barnett and MaxPower 

I appreciate discussions from both of you.  This is all valuable interesting facts that someone like me needs to consider for my own difficulties.  Everyone needs to consider the comments of others with a lot of leeway; they certainly do with me.   I have made my share of misunderstood comments here. 

MaxPower, consider any comments as they are appropriate to you.  I realized the overbore by 0.060 is not a part of the issue, and what is done is done. We work with it and move on.  The issue is solving your heat issue with what you have. That is the challenge we all want because (like me) your solution can help us. 

I have several fans from U-pull over the years of collection. If you want to try one, or measure what I have, I can stop by. 

[jholmes217 65]

2 hours ago, barnett468 said:

I can still get that fan with the correct numbers stamped on it for a 428 with ac and I can get the heavy duty clutch that is nearly identical to the original.

My car didn't have a AC according to the Marti Report.  Do you have a non-AC fan with clutch for a non-AC 1969 Cobra Jet?

My car did have power steering according to the Marti Report, but for some reason it doesn't now.  I get a good work out every time I pull into and out of a parking space.  My next task is to track down all the power steering parts I need.  Do you have any of those Barnett?

[barnett468 418]

8 hours ago, jholmes217 said:

My car didn't have a AC according to the Marti Report.  Do you have a non-AC fan with clutch for a non-AC 1969 Cobra Jet?

My car did have power steering according to the Marti Report, but for some reason it doesn't now.  I get a good work out every time I pull into and out of a parking space.  My next task is to track down all the power steering parts I need.  Do you have any of those Barnett?

Yes I do have at least some of the parts and can probably locate any others that I don't have. Just send me a pm with your number and I can call you if you want.