Edumacate me about Ford's 427/428/429

[Bob Gaines 0]

On 3/15/2017 at 10:47 AM, Bob & Sue said:

SAAC has all of the factory production records for 68 Shelby's . Kevin Marti has the Ford data base at his disposal. Nether has any record of 1 427 68 Shelby from the factory let alone 26 . FYI no 68 Shelby's came with over the top LeMans stripes from the factory.   Extraordinary claims require extra ordinary proof.

 

 

In 1968 Shelby also produced 26 GT500 with 427's in them 2 had automatics 1 was Green with white stripes 1 was White.with blue stripes 

 

I leased the Green GT500 427 Automatic it was a lease Shelby wouldn't allow them to be sold a friend of mine leased the White one. Both cars were in wrecks near Alki Beach in West Seattle 2 months apart. The insurance companies totaled both cars, they went to a crusher in June of 1969.

 

The green one had the rear end lock up on a windy road doing about 70 mph spun several times hitting 2 parked cars and a pole.

 

The white one had a drunk driver hit it head on on Hi-way 99 both cars were doing around 60 mph

 

[barnett468 418]

7 hours ago, Bob Gaines said:

I knew Wayne and I am familiar with many of his wonderful cars. Waynes cars were driver quality cars (nothing wrong with that) and where not yard sticks for originality. You are mis informed that you think his Black KR convert came with the 427 from the factory or swaped at the factory ,dealer installed or what ever . It was owner added..

Hello Bob;

Your name sounds a bit familiar to me for some reason . I looked it up and see there is a Bob Gaines that is heavily involved in the Mustangs and Shelbys . Is that you? If so, I'm sure you know my friends Jim Cowles and Craig Conley and I'm just trying to figure out if we have met before . I actually just talked to Craig 3 days ago about the value of a hi po crank I wanted to sell.

 

Anyway, welcome to the site and what brings you to this particular site ?

 

 

 

[Bob Gaines 0]

3 hours ago, barnett468 said:

Hello Bob;

Your name sounds a bit familiar to me for some reason . I looked it up and see there is a Bob Gaines that is heavily involved in the Mustangs and Shelbys . Is that you? If so, I'm sure you know my friends Jim Cowles and Craig Conley and I'm just trying to figure out if we have met before . I actually just talked to Craig 3 days ago about the value of a hi po crank I wanted to sell.

 

Anyway, welcome to the site and what brings you to this particular site ?

 

 

 

Thank you for the welcome.  Yes I have been around Shelby's for a long time now. Yes I know Jim and Craig . They are friends . I read a post on the SAAC forum where they quoted someone here perpetuating the urban myth about 68 Shelby's with 427's . It was a version of the myth that I hadn't heard before . I wanted to read it and the context for myself .  

[Bob & Sue 110]

12 hours ago, Bob Gaines said:

 

Bob,

I will stand fully corrected about the 427 68 except for the stripes (they may have been done by the PO). The history of those 2 cars is they originally were leased by a company in Seattle myself and a friend took over the leases when the company failed, both cars had truck plates on them with gross weight stickers under the rear fenders I was pulled over several times because of that. They were licensed that way so the PO could use truck parking spots in Seattle. The only service I ever had done on the green one was at a Ford dealer in West Seattle that has been gone for years.

I really never paid much attention to the car it was just a driver I used while I was in town at the time I was on the road match racing funny cars till we switched to SS/AA and SS/BA Plymouth's. After the green one was wrecked someone wanted to buy it from the insurance company that's when we were told the the story about the engine I have believed it since the summer of 1969. 

I stand fully corrected and had no intention of spreading something that isn't true.

[Max Power 74]

14 hours ago, Bob Gaines said:

I knew Wayne and I am familiar with many of his wonderful cars. Waynes cars were driver quality cars (nothing wrong with that) and where not yard sticks for originality. You are mis informed that you think his Black KR convert came with the 427 from the factory or swaped at the factory ,dealer installed or what ever . It was owner added..

I do know Ford in many models did not offer AC with 4 speed 428 CJ cars, I think out of fear of what could happen to the AC compressors at high rpm. AC with a 427 makes even less sense, but people could always swap on their own.

[barnett468 418]

3 hours ago, Bob Gaines said:

Thank you for the welcome.  Yes I have been around Shelby's for a long time now. Yes I know Jim and Craig . They are friends . I read a post on the SAAC forum where they quoted someone here perpetuating the urban myth about 68 Shelby's with 427's . It was a version of the myth that I hadn't heard before . I wanted to read it and the context for myself .  

Thanks for the reply . We may have crossed paths at one time or another .  I'm sure you know about the 65 Shelby magazine test car that was raced in Mexico which has the Shelby issued California plates and fog laps on it . I sold that to Colin Comer. He swore up and down that he would never sell it but I no longer see it on his site, lol . I offered it to Craig before we knew exactly what it was and he said it was a little too much money for the guys he knew, then he called me back a few days later and told me he would take it, but unfortunately I had just sold it.

Here's one article on it in case you haven't seen it.

http://www.hotrod.com/articles/1965-ford-shelby-mustang-gt350-carrying-the-torch/

 

[Bob Gaines 0]

8 hours ago, Bob & Sue said:

Bob,

I will stand fully corrected about the 427 68 except for the stripes (they may have been done by the PO). The history of those 2 cars is they originally were leased by a company in Seattle myself and a friend took over the leases when the company failed, both cars had truck plates on them with gross weight stickers under the rear fenders I was pulled over several times because of that. They were licensed that way so the PO could use truck parking spots in Seattle. The only service I ever had done on the green one was at a Ford dealer in West Seattle that has been gone for years.

I really never paid much attention to the car it was just a driver I used while I was in town at the time I was on the road match racing funny cars till we switched to SS/AA and SS/BA Plymouth's. After the green one was wrecked someone wanted to buy it from the insurance company that's when we were told the the story about the engine I have believed it since the summer of 1969. 

I stand fully corrected and had no intention of spreading something that isn't true.

Even though I didn't sense any malicious intent from the context of your previous post the gracious way you conceded correction of the information should show others that it was just a honest misunderstanding.

[Bob Gaines 0]

7 hours ago, Max Power said:

I do know Ford in many models did not offer AC with 4 speed 428 CJ cars, I think out of fear of what could happen to the AC compressors at high rpm. AC with a 427 makes even less sense, but people could always swap on their own.

i agree it is interesting on some CJ four speed models not being able to readily have A/C as a option. FYI 67 and 68 Shelby's used a special Shelby unique A/C compressors apparently for the high RPM running. Yes there were 68 GT500 KR (CJ) 4 speed with factory A/C. On 69/70 Shelby's the compressor was standard Mustang. For 69 I understand that there were only a small few  CJ 4 speed A/C Mustangs (according to Kevin Marti's records) and no 69/70 Shelby's.

[Sporty 0]

On 5/1/2017 at 9:39 PM, Bob Gaines said:

i agree it is interesting on some CJ four speed models not being able to readily have A/C as a option. FYI 67 and 68 Shelby's used a special Shelby unique A/C compressors apparently for the high RPM running. Yes there were 68 GT500 KR (CJ) 4 speed with factory A/C. On 69/70 Shelby's the compressor was standard Mustang. For 69 I understand that there were only a small few  CJ 4 speed A/C Mustangs (according to Kevin Marti's records) and no 69/70 Shelby's.

Well, at the risk of getting too far off into the weeds, 1968 Shelby's used the same York aluminum A/C compressors as 1968 Mustangs did, except the Shelby compressors were painted or left in the silver color while the Mustang compressors were painted black, usually.  Take them apart and you will see they are identical, other than the exterior paint color, small block and big block, Shelby and Mustang.  Not sure about the 1969-70 versions.

[Sporty 0]

On the question of 427 factory Mustangs, it is my understanding that Kevin Marti is on record as stating that while there are no "W Code" Mustangs for 1968 in the Ford records, a very few might have been factory built as "S Code" (390) cars and not assigned the W Code precisely because their numbers were very limited.  The 427 also shows up in some Ford literature as a 1969 option for the Mustang, and there are Ford Mustang "427" badges for 1968-69, but no confirmation that any cars were built that way.  Since there were 1968 Cougars built with W Code 427 engines, but none in 1969, a 1968 Mustang with a 427 seems more plausible than a 1969.

[Bob & Sue 110]

39 minutes ago, Sporty said:

Well, at the risk of getting too far off into the weeds, 1968 Shelby's used the same York aluminum A/C compressors as 1968 Mustangs did, except the Shelby compressors were painted or left in the silver color while the Mustang compressors were painted black, usually.  Take them apart and you will see they are identical, other than the exterior paint color, small block and big block, Shelby and Mustang.  Not sure about the 1969-70 versions.

Welcome

Before making any posts on Shelby's or Mustangs builds and options I would suggest you google who Bob Gaines is. When I posted about my 68 GT500 I knew who he was by name only I have never met him but have been at several events where he attended. I didn't even question anything he had to say he lives and breaths Shelby's and is probably one of the worlds top authority's on the subject.

It's a forum your welcome to post anything you like, this is a great forum with some very knowledgeable folks on it.

[Bob Gaines 0]

45 minutes ago, Sporty said:

Well, at the risk of getting too far off into the weeds, 1968 Shelby's used the same York aluminum A/C compressors as 1968 Mustangs did, except the Shelby compressors were painted or left in the silver color while the Mustang compressors were painted black, usually.  Take them apart and you will see they are identical, other than the exterior paint color, small block and big block, Shelby and Mustang.  Not sure about the 1969-70 versions.

 

46 minutes ago, Sporty said:

Well, at the risk of getting too far off into the weeds, 1968 Shelby's used the same York aluminum A/C compressors as 1968 Mustangs did, except the Shelby compressors were painted or left in the silver color while the Mustang compressors were painted black, usually.  Take them apart and you will see they are identical, other than the exterior paint color, small block and big block, Shelby and Mustang.  Not sure about the 1969-70 versions.

Since we are in the weeds we might as well go farther.The 67 and 68 Shelby's used a different compressor as proved by a different engineering number from the Mustang on the compressor tag . C7ZX prefix for 67 and C8ZX prefix for 68. The ZX portion indicated something special and was used extensively on Shelby unique items .  Ford was in the habit of changing engineering numbers for any small change . Ford was NOT in the habit of spending money frivolously on unnecessary design changes if they could save even a penny. In 67 for example Shelby production was held up on air conditioning cars for a time until the different compressors could be replaced.They came from Ford with regular compressors and those few were put to the side and replaced at Shelby American. subsequent builds got the updated compressor on the Ford line before going to Shelby American. As far as what is different mechanically in them you got me there . That design expertise is apparently above my pay grade because I have not been able to tell from examining them. I would not bet my life however that there was not a change making them unique given Fords past M.O. in that area.  The 69/70  Shelby compressor (351 auto/4speed and 428 auto only) on the other hand carries the same engineering number on the compressor tag as the regular Mustang.  

[Sporty 0]

32 minutes ago, Bob Gaines said:

 

Since we are in the weeds we might as well go farther.The 67 and 68 Shelby's used a different compressor as proved by a different engineering number from the Mustang on the compressor tag . C7ZX prefix for 67 and C8ZX prefix for 68. The ZX portion indicated something special and was used extensively on Shelby unique items .  Ford was in the habit of changing engineering numbers for any small change . Ford was NOT in the habit of spending money frivolously on unnecessary design changes if they could save even a penny. In 67 for example Shelby production was held up on air conditioning cars for a time until the different compressors could be replaced.They came from Ford with regular compressors and those few were put to the side and replaced at Shelby American. subsequent builds got the updated compressor on the Ford line before going to Shelby American. As far as what is different mechanically in them you got me there . That design expertise is apparently above my pay grade because I have not been able to tell from examining them. I would not bet my life however that there was not a change making them unique given Fords past M.O. in that area.  The 69/70  Shelby compressor (351 auto/4speed and 428 auto only) on the other hand carries the same engineering number on the compressor tag as the regular Mustang.  

Bob, It sounds like you have also seen the 68 York compressors side by side.  They are the same.  In fact, the service replacement is the same for 68 Shelby and Mustang.  We can speculate why the tag was different in 68 and apparently the same in 69.  Maybe it was just the exterior finish.  That is the only difference I have observed.  I will take your word for it on the 67 compressors being different.  I do not know enough about them.

[Bob Gaines 0]

53 minutes ago, Sporty said:

Bob, It sounds like you have also seen the 68 York compressors side by side.  They are the same.  In fact, the service replacement is the same for 68 Shelby and Mustang.  We can speculate why the tag was different in 68 and apparently the same in 69.  Maybe it was just the exterior finish.  That is the only difference I have observed.  I will take your word for it on the 67 compressors being different.  I do not know enough about them.

Yes , I have seen the 67 Shelby York compressor and the 68 York compressor side by side the regular Mustang version. The color had to do with easier identification of the compressors for assemblyline workers I believe given that the small engineering number on the tag would be harder to read. My expertise on compressors internals is lacking because I must be over looking some minor difference between the 67and 68 Shelby vs regular Mustang compressor . Ford would not go to all the trouble plus the added expense to identify the compressor differently and change the engineering number if there was not some kind of difference.  The 69/70 Shelby used the same cast iron Tecumseh compressor with same engineering number as the regular Mustang. The cast iron Tecumseh compressor was commonly used at the Dearborn plant then.

[Max Power 74]

On 7/14/2017 at 3:16 PM, Sporty said:

On the question of 427 factory Mustangs, it is my understanding that Kevin Marti is on record as stating that while there are no "W Code" Mustangs for 1968 in the Ford records, a very few might have been factory built as "S Code" (390) cars and not assigned the W Code precisely because their numbers were very limited.  The 427 also shows up in some Ford literature as a 1969 option for the Mustang, and there are Ford Mustang "427" badges for 1968-69, but no confirmation that any cars were built that way.  Since there were 1968 Cougars built with W Code 427 engines, but none in 1969, a 1968 Mustang with a 427 seems more plausible than a 1969.

I tend to be a little wary of Ford literature, especially pre-release literature. I have seen Ford literature offering the Boss 429 in Cougars as well. It never went to production.