Edumacate me about Ford's 427/428/429

[Midlife 814]

I hope this is the right forum (I thought Garage might be OK as well) to find out about these three engines and their positives and negatives.

 

I get them confused all the time, and Ford actually had all three available about the same time frame (68-70), which doesn't make a whole lot of sense if an auto manufacturer is trying to save money.  I do know that:

427 is 4.23x3.78 (bore x stroke), FE (not including SOHC version)

428 is 4.13 x 3.98, also an FE

429 is 4.36 x 3.59, 385 block design (non-Boss variants)

 

My question(s) is: what advantages/disadvantages from the end-user's point of view of each of these three beasts?  Does one make more power at high RPM?  Does one have significantly more torque?  Which one has better street or strip manners?  What are the good design aspects and bad design issues that someone might be concerned about?  What about aftermarket support?  Are they interchangeable from a motor mount/tranny attachments?  I take it heads from the 427/428 are not interchangeable?

 

Tell me...

 

 

 

 

And if you want me to get really excited, any pictures of a SOHC 427 will do wonders!  *G*

[TheRktmn 15]

The FE family consists of basically the 360, 390, 427 and 428. There are others and the 360 is predominately a truck motor, so most people stick to the 390-427-428 configurations. I am no expert on FE engines, but I believe that most all parts are interchangeable. They are easily recognized because the intake manifold goes under the top 1/4 or so of the valve cover. If you have the block stripped down you will see that the crank bearings sit within the block casting rather than hanging down like a normal V8.

 

 

The Lima family consists of the 429 and 460. These are basically overgrown Clevelands. The 429-460 parts are interchangeable as are the starters and distributors from the Clevelands - 351C, 351M and 400M. I think that the Limas are the better looking of the two engine families.

 

 

Transmission bolt patterns are different between FE, Lima and Cleveland families, although the Cleveland family will interchange with the Windsor family - 260, 289, 302, 351W.

 

Motor mounts are also family specific.

 

Performance parts are available for the FE, although expensive and harder to find lately.

The Lima engine is much more economical to build and get cheap grunt out of.

 

Motor porn:

 

 

[Cason 4]

I too do not claim to be an expert (so others could chime in) but often a big problem is telling the FE engines apart when assembled.  

 

My understanding is the 427 is the only FE with screw in freeze plugs and all 427's have 4 bolt mains via cross bolted main caps.  

(NOTE: I have heard rumors of a few police issue 390's having these features but no proof and numbers are so few that it is a non issue)

 

Bore and stroke wise the 427 is more of a square bore "revver" while the 428's are smaller bore stump pullers.  

The 390 historically was a "truck" motor put into the Mustang.  Stock it was not a match for a 396 Camaro or Chevelle.

 

Also with the 427's you have side, center and top oilers that all look identical.  The 427 was also very popular in the marine and industrial side of the business so just because it is a 427 does not mean it is a "High Performance" engine.  

The good news is If you have a 427 (or any of the others) you can build it to be as high performance as your wallet can handle.

 

Case

[Ridge Runner 1,112]

Dont forget about the 406 and the 410 Merc . 406 was a pretty good builder and could be bought with a 2x4 intake or a 3 deuce with a solid lift cam ,and i believe it used 427 heads?  and the 410 is pretty much a stroked 390 using a 428 crank with a 390 bore .both are good builders 

[Bob & Sue 110]

Here's a link to Ford explaining the history and progression of those engines, debunking a lot of myths about the 427. As I remember it the 426 Chrysler Hemi dominated Nascar Ford wanted the 427 to beat the hemis, Chrysler & Ford argued about the 426 cu in limit with a rule change being made to allow Ford to have a 1 cu in larger engine. The 427's were first built as race engines in 1963.

 

This explains it all

 

http://performance.ford.com/enthusiasts/newsroom/2016/01/the-_factory-427-mustang-myth.html

 

Some good info on the 427 SOHC Funny Car's & dragsters.

I raced Tasca Fords 427 SOHC Mustang in 1968 at Irwindale Raceway he beat me by about 2 car lengths.

 

http://www.hotrod.com/articles/birth-of-the-flip-top/

[RPM 1,190]

Good articles, thanks Bob.

[Raven R code 281]

FE= Ford Edsel.....352,360,390,428 and 427

FT= Ford Truck.....429/ 460

 

My engine guy loves FE motors but says FT is the way to go if not going for originality.

[barnett468 418]

It might be helpful if you also told us exactly what you wanted to do . I the think the simplest answer is that a 390/428 are the most common and are therefore going to be a little easier and/or cheaper to get parts for. and all of them can be built to either make good bottom end power (especially if you put a stroker kit in them), or rev fairly high and make good top end power.

[Midlife 814]

It might be helpful if you also told us exactly what you wanted to do . I the think the simplest answer is that a 390/428 are the most common and are therefore going to be a little easier and/or cheaper to get parts for. and all of them can be built to either make good bottom end power (especially if you put a stroker kit in them), or rev fairly high and make good top end power.

Not building anything; just confused over the years and wanted to know the difference in seat-of-the-pants from end-users. 

[barnett468 418]

Not building anything; just confused over the years and wanted to know the difference in seat-of-the-pants from end-users. 

 

 

ok, i have had several of each in various build levels so as i mentioned, you can make any of them do what you want . as far as fe's and 427's go, the ones with medium riser heads make more power than the ones with low riser heads . there are small and big head options for the 429's as well.

 

the 71 429 cj engines have ports big enough to put your fist into

[jholmes217 65]

On 3/14/2017 at 6:30 AM, Raven R code said:

FE= Ford Edsel.....352,360,390,428 and 427

FT= Ford Truck.....429/ 460

 

My engine guy loves FE motors but says FT is the way to go if not going for originality.

 

After getting one in 2010, I thought FE stood for Friggin Expensive!

[Rsanter 152]

If we had more information as to why you want to know ( knowledge, trying to pick one to build, etc) we can answer it better.

 

Yes they were available at the same time but the FE was getting phased out and replaced with the 429

 

If you want a drag engine and do not care about specific look or era then go with a 429-460 and stroke it to between 500 and 600 cubes

 

If you want era correct look for a mustang then you get a 427 block and put a 428 crank in it and get 454ci of ford FE engine

 

If you need a specific engine for the car to be correct then you go getnthat engine

 

Bob

[Max Power 74]

Ford was fairly typical in how many manufacturers look for solutions to challenges within. The FE was originally designed to power ever heavier and well appointed family sedans, and considering the design of the Y Block, the 352 2v was a big improvement as a smooth running, torquey and reliable powerplant. In the early 60s, performance started to sell and you saw bigger inch versions developed to answer that bell, with the 390, 406, 410 and 427. Ultimately, the large bore-short stroke 427 was the most successful in the racing arena, for obvious reasons. The 390 became the go to sedan engine and truck engine, the 427 through 67 mostly was the performance offering, and the 428 was developed for luxury applications like T-Birds where more torque was desired over the 390 offerings, without the racy characteristics of the 427. The early 428s were also police package engines. Ford than figured out that if you put a halfway decent cam and slightly better heads on the 428, the 427 wasn't really necessary anymore. That's why you saw a handful of 427s in 68 in applications like the Cougar GTE (switching from solid lifter to hydraulic lifter cams in the process) and mid year the CJ 428 arrived, which took over the 427s primary duties. The main difference between the 68 Shelby GT500 and GT500KR was switching over form the 428 Police Interceptor to the CJ version.

 

Ford knew that the heavy old design would need replacing and the 429/460 came in to play, a design that is still sold through Ford Motorsport today. Similar to early FEs, the 429s really got their start in Lincoln and luxury applications before Ford waved their performance wand at them.

 

So, with only 2 cubic inches separating the 427-428-429 engines, they all served a purpose for a time, and all made perfect sense at that time.

[Bob & Sue 110]

 That's why you saw a handful of 427s in 68 in applications like the Cougar GTE (switching from solid lifter to hydraulic lifter cams in the process) and mid year the CJ 428 arrived, which took over the 427s primary duties. The main difference between the 68 Shelby GT500 and GT500KR was switching over form the 428 Police Interceptor to the CJ version.

 

 

 

 

 

In 1968 Shelby also produced 26 GT500 with 427's in them 2 had automatics 1 was Green with white stripes 1 was White.with blue stripes 

 

I leased the Green GT500 427 Automatic it was a lease Shelby wouldn't allow them to be sold a friend of mine leased the White one. Both cars were in wrecks near Alki Beach in West Seattle 2 months apart. The insurance companies totaled both cars, they went to a crusher in June of 1969.

 

The green one had the rear end lock up on a windy road doing about 70 mph spun several times hitting 2 parked cars and a pole.

 

The white one had a drunk driver hit it head on on Hi-way 99 both cars were doing around 60 mph

[RPM 1,190]

Cool info, thanks Bob.

[det0326 179]

Randy we will tell you all the secrets of the ford engines when you tell us the trade secret to get a new wire thru an existing grommet.  LOL  couldn't resist.    

 

Dave

[RPM 1,190]

Randy we will tell you all the secrets of the ford engines when you tell us the trade secret to get a new wire thru an existing grommet.  LOL  couldn't resist.    

 

Dave

 

:)

[Midlife 814]

Push/pull the damn wire through the bundle after it has been crimped to stiff bailing wire.

 

Next questions: what's the difference between side and top oiler 427s?  Why were 427's popular as marine engines?  What generally has more torque:  bore greater than stroke or stroke greater than bore, or is it really the engine design itself?

[Max Power 74]

Push/pull the damn wire through the bundle after it has been crimped to stiff bailing wire.

 

Next questions: what's the difference between side and top oiler 427s?  Why were 427's popular as marine engines?  What generally has more torque:  bore greater than stroke or stroke greater than bore, or is it really the engine design itself?

As a general rule, long stroke motors make torque, short stroke motors rev and make horsepower. The entertaining phrase to describe the difference between torque and horsepower is....Horsepower determines how fast you are going when you hit the wall, Torque is how far you push the wall after you hit it.

 

Side oiler 427s just had an oil channel in the side of the block which you can see from the outside, a separate dedicated feed that re-routed oil to the mains first, then the cam and valvetrain, the top oiler routed oil to the cam and valvetrain first, then the mains. I imagine it addressed spun bearing failures in racing applications. If you want to be an FE expert, buy this:

 

https://www.cartechbooks.com/how-to-build-max-performance-ford-fe-engines.html

[Black Jade 43]

I remember a gentleman by the name of Wayne Curry having a  Black 1968 GT 500 Convertible with a 427 and factory AC. Slips my mind if it was auto or stick. This guy had the premier collection of Fords. Story on the GT 500 was that it was a Ford Executive car and that was the way he he had it built. Also he had a twin to this car but with 428. 

[Max Power 74]

You hear lots of tales about stuff that went on at Shelby, stuff off the books and such. I really wonder about the validity of some in 1968, as Ford took over production. Shelby was a wild card, but Ford was a little more straight laced.

[1969_Mach1 333]

As a general rule, long stroke motors make torque, short stroke motors rev and make horsepower. The entertaining phrase to describe the difference between torque and horsepower is....Horsepower determines how fast you are going when you hit the wall, Torque is how far you push the wall after you hit it.

 Power =  Torque x Angular Velocity

 

The angular velocity term is RPM converted to Radians per second.

 

So horsepower and torque are directly related to each other.  Not independent of each other.

[Bob & Sue 110]

You hear lots of tales about stuff that went on at Shelby, stuff off the books and such. I really wonder about the validity of some in 1968, as Ford took over production. Shelby was a wild card, but Ford was a little more straight laced.

 

The reason we could only lease the 2 1968 GT500 with 427's was Shelby wanted full control of the 26 he produced. When both of these cars were wrecked & totaled by the insurance company he made them crush the cars, we were told he didn't want any salvage titles associated with his name. Ford states some 3 dozen were made I was told when we leased them that 26 were made.

 

From Ford Racing History:

 

But the 390 was just too slow-revving and mild-mannered for the serious Ford horsepower buffs. And even though Carroll Shelby was offering Ford's 428 cubic-inch "Police Interceptor" big-block in his upmarket GT500 Mustang model, the motoring press still wasn’t that impressed when compared to the big-motored Chevies, Pontiacs and Mopars. So later that model year, Shelby reportedly decided to go all-out and build some three dozen GT500s with Ford's premier race engine underhood – the 427 big-block.

 

Carroll Shelby was less involved in the design of the ’69 model, and a combination of slower sales and creative differences caused the Shelby-Ford partnership to end in the summer of 1969. Leftover ‘69s were sold as ‘70s, and Shelby only produced his special brand of Mustangs per the request of a Belgian Shelby dealer for the next two years. These ’71 and ’72 models were known as “Shelby Europas†and were exclusive to Europe.

[Max Power 74]

I believe Shelby became considerably less involved in the 68 models, or involved in a different way. Styling was taken over by Ford, as a response to the multiple suppliers of fiberglass bits with inconsistent quality for the 67 models, and Ford chose to sublet it out to AO Smith in Detroit. Shelby also lost their lease to the hangars in LA, and had to move as Shelby American to Detroit around the same time. Also, San Jose had lost interest in stopping production to make the Shelby chassis, so production swithed over to Metuched at that time as well.

With all that going on, who really knows what ended up in what? I guess I have never seen official paperwork declaring 427s in 68s, but that sure doesn't mean it didn't happen. At this point I believe everything and nothing, especially if Shelby was running it.

[Bob Gaines 0]

On 3/17/2017 at 10:58 AM, Black Jade said:

I remember a gentleman by the name of Wayne Curry having a  Black 1968 GT 500 Convertible with a 427 and factory AC. Slips my mind if it was auto or stick. This guy had the premier collection of Fords. Story on the GT 500 was that it was a Ford Executive car and that was the way he he had it built. Also he had a twin to this car but with 428. 

I knew Wayne and I am familiar with many of his wonderful cars. Waynes cars were driver quality cars (nothing wrong with that) and where not yard sticks for originality. You are mis informed that you think his Black KR convert came with the 427 from the factory or swaped at the factory ,dealer installed or what ever . It was owner added..