408w rotating assembly and heads

[lalojamesliz 56]

I decided to ditch the 302 build and finally use the 1969 351w block I have been saving for many years. 

I've read probe makes a good 408w kit. 

Anyone know who or where I can call to discuss what kit to buy?

 

How about the heads, I was going to use some trick flow 11r 190 heads. Would those still be good or should I get the afr 205 heads? Or smaller?

 

I'm worried I'll have piston to valve clearance issues. That's why I want to talk to the stroker kit vendor to make sure I'm good and have a 91 octane friendly compression :)

Thanks guys

[lalojamesliz 56]

This will be for a street car and a tko600 trans most likely and 3.70 ish  gears. 

[barnett468 418]

We need a bit more info as to exactly what you want the engine to run like . As far as the kits go, I typically use individual pieces from Eagle then use 4032 material pistons . The probe pistons that come with the kits are 2618 material . You can also typically get away with using a cam that has less than .600 lift if you use pistons designed for conventional heads with the 11r heads . The 11r heads are typically an xlnt all around head for a street engine and so are the AFR 195 heads but the AFR's are very expensive now.

 

The Eddy RPM and Air Gap intakes are the most common ones to use.

 

I would have that trans modified if you plan to speed shift it.

[MikeStang 247]

Call Woody at Fordstrokers.net

My local shop that built my 408 used an Eagle crank and rods with Ross Pistons and I run AFR 205's Cam is .571 max lift.

 

Be sure and tell the person your getting the kit from what year block you are using as well, as I think the 351 older blocks have shorter deck height :)

 

Also if you are looking at eagle or scat cranks have your builder call them and see if they have any blemish cranks...When I toasted the thrust bearing in my 408 due to converter issues my machine shop was going to just put another cast crank in which was rated about 700hp, but they called and said Eagle had a Blemished Forged crank that would handle north of 1200 or so hp and it was same price as a cast crank...they got it in and checked it out and it ended up needing to be turned .010 on mains which was fine with me, and they only charged me $25.00 to do the work and rebalance it all since I have used them for ever...Long story short, shop around.

 

I saw a set of CNC Ported AFR 205's on one of my FB mustang pages for sale last night for $1200.00 with no springs but came with stud girdle and new poly locks...the springs sold with the cam, but you would be $1500 into a set of afr 205's after springs if you could get those.

[lalojamesliz 56]

We need a bit more info as to exactly what you want the engine to run like . As far as the kits go, I typically use individual pieces from Eagle then use 4032 material pistons . The probe pistons that come with the kits are 2618 material . You can also typically get away with using a cam that has less than .600 lift if you use pistons designed for conventional heads with the 11r heads . The 11r heads are typically an xlnt all around head for a street engine and so are the AFR 195 heads but the AFR's are very expensive now.

 

The Eddy RPM and Air Gap intakes are the most common ones to use.

 

I would have that trans modified if you plan to speed shift it.

 

I just want a mean street engine that won't die on me at a red light because the idle is so bad. 

I don't know how else to explain it.

 

Would I be better off buying piece by piece money wise?

I wanted to get a kit because I don't know exactly what to buy and it made it simple with a kit. 

Any chance you can tell me exactly what to buy to complete the longblock for a small (very small ;-) ) fee?

The 11r heads or the AFR 195's...... I just want the best one for me and my 408w for a street car with the once in a while drag race with friends. 

I'd like it to run off of 91 octane so I can't go crazy with the compression. I can mix in a gallon of e85 to boost the octane but I'd rather not because the closest station with e85 is 60 miles away :(

[lalojamesliz 56]

Call Woody at Fordstrokers.net

My local shop that built my 408 used an Eagle crank and rods with Ross Pistons and I run AFR 205's Cam is .571 max lift.

 

Be sure and tell the person your getting the kit from what year block you are using as well, as I think the 351 older blocks have shorter deck height :)

 

Also if you are looking at eagle or scat cranks have your builder call them and see if they have any blemish cranks...When I toasted the thrust bearing in my 408 due to converter issues my machine shop was going to just put another cast crank in which was rated about 700hp, but they called and said Eagle had a Blemished Forged crank that would handle north of 1200 or so hp and it was same price as a cast crank...they got it in and checked it out and it ended up needing to be turned .010 on mains which was fine with me, and they only charged me $25.00 to do the work and rebalance it all since I have used them for ever...Long story short, shop around.

 

I saw a set of CNC Ported AFR 205's on one of my FB mustang pages for sale last night for $1200.00 with no springs but came with stud girdle and new poly locks...the springs sold with the cam, but you would be $1500 into a set of afr 205's after springs if you could get those.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well, I don't have a builder as of now.  I wanted to stick to  not buying used parts for this from other guys. The blemish thing sounds nice.  You think I can just call? 

[barnett468 418]

sure i and several others here can tell you exactly which parts to buy to make your own killer kit . i will post some later.

 

compression is king . you will get the most power from straight e85, HOWEVER, if you build it to run on e85 it will ping/detonate on 91 so you will have to stick with e85.

 

summit racing has some of the best prices and free shipping.

 

where do you live?

 

what is the date code on your block?

 

are you looking to do it on a budget?

 

do you plan to drag race it or rev it to 4000 rpm and dump the clutch often?

 

what is your rear gear ratio?

 

you want a noticeable idle but not a dragster idle?

 

you want killer bottom end that revs to maybe 5500 rpm or would you rather give up a little bottom end power for one that revs high like 6500 etc?

 

how often will you be flogging the bejesus out of it and how much of the time will you be driving it sanely?

[MikeStang 247]

Ill list out my build below.

My shit gets beat on every time my ass hits the seat, and like you I wanted as much HP as I could get and still be street friendly in terms of Idle because I run an automatic trans with a tight converter along with AC... My specifications were Pump gas friendly, Decent idle in drive with AC on, Max Hp I could get with off the shelf parts and I wanted a large smooth HP/torque curve...... We get 87, 91, 93 octane here in Louisiana and its mostly all been cut with 10% or more ethanol as stated at the pump.... My car runs fine on 91 &93 altho I usually stick to 93.

 

Anyhow here is how I am set up.

 

Trans is a built 4R70W with 2800 stall controlled by a Bauman controller, rear end is a 9" with 3.73 Trac Loc and Caltracs, I have Factory Auto Air for Heating and Cooling and don't us a kick up solenoid to control Idle with the ac on, Also have Power steering as well. 

Motor is as follows.

408 Cubes, Block is from a 95 Ford Lightning so it was a factory roller block.

Short Block Consists of Eagle Forged Crank, I-Beam Forged Rods, Ross Pistons, and a Main Girdle with ARP Studs.

Heads are Box Stock AFR 205's (these are the older Nitrous Ported version which are a CNC version if I recall, they are now called outlaw heads I think. I have flow sheets from the heads if you wanna see Real flow numbers off a Super Flow bench.

The springs were changed to match the Comp Hyd Roller Cam that we had Comp Grind as well. Valves are stock untouched from AFR.

The Camshaft is a Comp Custom Hyd Roller grind and the specs are 228/236@50 with 563/571 Lift and ground on a 113 LSA.

I run the Stock Style Hyd Roller lifters for Ford Motorsports along with the stock style retainer and dog bones.. both of which were bought new so I did not use the old spider and dog bones from the motor when I got it.

The intake is an Edelbrock Vic Jr unported but it matched the AFR heads to a T somehow...Carb is an 850 Holley Dbl pumper W/Manual secondaries.

Headers are FRP stepped from 1-3/4" to 1-7/8" into a 3" collector if I recall.

 

We dynode the motor with an HP 950 Carb and 1-7/8 or 2" primary headers on 93 octane pump gas and it responded to the tune of 550.9hp on motor and 659hp on a 125 shot of gas....Torque was over 500lbft at like 4000 RPM's I think? I would have to pull dyno sheets to verify that tho. 

 

All and all I could not ask for a better street friendly pavement pounder that I would drive anywhere.

I have driven the car to and from Cruising the Coast 3 years running, did some of the Hot Rod power tour and recently ran a poker run from Houston to Lake Charles LA with some high end exotics and this motor has been problem free except for the time I had converter issues and burnt the thrust bearing out, but that was MY fault.

Oh I get an average of 20 mpg with the 850 carb and OD transmission Btw LOL.

I have videos of the Idle in park and in drive if you wanna see them... it has become a little to mellow for me and I am wanting to possibly do a cam swap to something more aggressive sounding LOL...

It idles right at 650 RPM's in gear with the AC on and has a nice smooth lope to it hehe

[barnett468 418]

My shit gets beat on every time my ass hits the seat...

 

Xlnt!

[MikeStang 247]

LOL I built it with foot to the floor at the top of my list HaHA

[BuckeyeDemon 211]

i thought Probe closed their doors or went out of business?

[lalojamesliz 56]

sure i and several others here can tell you exactly which parts to buy to make your own killer kit . i will post some later.

 

compression is king . you will get the most power from straight e85, HOWEVER, if you build it to run on e85 it will ping/detonate on 91 so you will have to stick with e85.

 

summit racing has some of the best prices and free shipping.

 

where do you live?

 

what is the date code on your block?

 

are you looking to do it on a budget?

 

do you plan to drag race it or rev it to 4000 rpm and dump the clutch often?

 

what is your rear gear ratio?

 

you want a noticeable idle but not a dragster idle?

 

you want killer bottom end that revs to maybe 5500 rpm or would you rather give up a little bottom end power for one that revs high like 6500 etc?

 

how often will you be flogging the bejesus out of it and how much of the time will you be driving it sanely?

 

I live in Bakersfield, CA 

 

A budget would be nice so I have money left for the trans but reliable and fast are very important to me 

This will mainly be for street but also I'll have to put some friends to shame once in a while so a launch here and there is needed

Yes, I want a mean idle but I don't want red light problems

Bottom end! I don't want torque problems to the point I can't use first gear though. Shifting a 6k would be nice but I'm sure 5500 would be fine

The speed limit here on most streets where I live are 55mph with 2-3 lane roads. I like to accelerate faster than most cars on the roads from stop light to stop light. 

I would like to be able to drive this to my parents house 110 miles away without running out of gas so if I can at least average 15mpg I'd be happy. 

I am OK at driving efficient when I need too.

The gears I was thinking of getting for my 9" rear are 3.73/3.70. I also need to buy that 3rd member. 

I currently have 28 spline axles. Wil that be OK with this mondter?

[Hoover 12]

With 2.02 valves, the pistons will need to be notched for clearance.

[barnett468 418]

28 splines are ok providing you don't have cal tracs with mickey thompson et street radials . they make some aftermarket 28 spline axles also like moser etc which are a better way to go than stockers.

 

i don't know what you mean by red light problems at idle.

[Mach1 Driver 560]

I have videos of the Idle in park and in drive if you wanna see them..

 

Mike I'd like to see your idle videos, also do you have power brakes, and if not do you know your idle vacuum? Thanks

[RPM 1,190]

I live in Bakersfield, CA

 

 

What? Bakersfield? First I heard about this. Give me a call 380-5964, Bob.

[lalojamesliz 56]

Ill list out my build below.

My shit gets beat on every time my ass hits the seat, and like you I wanted as much HP as I could get and still be street friendly in terms of Idle because I run an automatic trans with a tight converter along with AC... My specifications were Pump gas friendly, Decent idle in drive with AC on, Max Hp I could get with off the shelf parts and I wanted a large smooth HP/torque curve...... We get 87, 91, 93 octane here in Louisiana and its mostly all been cut with 10% or more ethanol as stated at the pump.... My car runs fine on 91 &93 altho I usually stick to 93.

 

Anyhow here is how I am set up.

 

Trans is a built 4R70W with 2800 stall controlled by a Bauman controller, rear end is a 9" with 3.73 Trac Loc and Caltracs, I have Factory Auto Air for Heating and Cooling and don't us a kick up solenoid to control Idle with the ac on, Also have Power steering as well. 

Motor is as follows.

408 Cubes, Block is from a 95 Ford Lightning so it was a factory roller block.

Short Block Consists of Eagle Forged Crank, I-Beam Forged Rods, Ross Pistons, and a Main Girdle with ARP Studs.

Heads are Box Stock AFR 205's (these are the older Nitrous Ported version which are a CNC version if I recall, they are now called outlaw heads I think. I have flow sheets from the heads if you wanna see Real flow numbers off a Super Flow bench.

The springs were changed to match the Comp Hyd Roller Cam that we had Comp Grind as well. Valves are stock untouched from AFR.

The Camshaft is a Comp Custom Hyd Roller grind and the specs are 228/236@50 with 563/571 Lift and ground on a 113 LSA.

I run the Stock Style Hyd Roller lifters for Ford Motorsports along with the stock style retainer and dog bones.. both of which were bought new so I did not use the old spider and dog bones from the motor when I got it.

The intake is an Edelbrock Vic Jr unported but it matched the AFR heads to a T somehow...Carb is an 850 Holley Dbl pumper W/Manual secondaries.

Headers are FRP stepped from 1-3/4" to 1-7/8" into a 3" collector if I recall.

 

We dynode the motor with an HP 950 Carb and 1-7/8 or 2" primary headers on 93 octane pump gas and it responded to the tune of 550.9hp on motor and 659hp on a 125 shot of gas....Torque was over 500lbft at like 4000 RPM's I think? I would have to pull dyno sheets to verify that tho. 

 

All and all I could not ask for a better street friendly pavement pounder that I would drive anywhere.

I have driven the car to and from Cruising the Coast 3 years running, did some of the Hot Rod power tour and recently ran a poker run from Houston to Lake Charles LA with some high end exotics and this motor has been problem free except for the time I had converter issues and burnt the thrust bearing out, but that was MY fault.

Oh I get an average of 20 mpg with the 850 carb and OD transmission Btw LOL.

I have videos of the Idle in park and in drive if you wanna see them... it has become a little to mellow for me and I am wanting to possibly do a cam swap to something more aggressive sounding LOL...

It idles right at 650 RPM's in gear with the AC on and has a nice smooth lope to it hehe

 

Man that sounds nice. I'll have to keep track of these parts you have making that monster

[lalojamesliz 56]

28 splines are ok providing you don't have cal tracs with mickey thompson et street radials . they make some aftermarket 28 spline axles also like moser etc which are a better way to go than stockers.

 

i don't know what you mean by red light problems at idle.

 

 

Should I just switch to 31 spline or just get the aftermarket 28 spline axles?

 

I still need to buy the third member. Right now I have the 28 spline peg leg with 3.00 gears

 

Not sure what wheels and tires I'm getting yet but I want to get something that will reduce my traction problems with the 408w on the street

 

I meant that I want a badass sounding idle but not to the point where I have to hold the gas a little to keep it on because of a idle that sounds and feels like it's going to turn off. That'll better if it did sound and feel like that as long as it doesn't stall

I don't know how to explain it better :)

[lalojamesliz 56]

What? Bakersfield? First I heard about this. Give me a call 380-5964, Bob.

 

Hey Bob nice to meet you, I just now saw this post and I'm not about to bug you at this hour (after 10pm) without knowing if your awake. 

I'll give you a call tomorrow :)

 

I work nights guys so that's why I post most things from 9pm-6am pst.

 

That's the one thing I hate, I'm up when most people are sleeping then when I go to sleep I get all these great responses and I don't reply for several hours sometimes and the people that replied that are not addicted to these sites are offline by then......

[RCE1313 23]

Ill list out my build below.

My shit gets beat on every time my ass hits the seat, and like you I wanted as much HP as I could get and still be street friendly in terms of Idle because I run an automatic trans with a tight converter along with AC... My specifications were Pump gas friendly, Decent idle in drive with AC on, Max Hp I could get with off the shelf parts and I wanted a large smooth HP/torque curve...... We get 87, 91, 93 octane here in Louisiana and its mostly all been cut with 10% or more ethanol as stated at the pump.... My car runs fine on 91 &93 altho I usually stick to 93.

 

Anyhow here is how I am set up.

 

Trans is a built 4R70W with 2800 stall controlled by a Bauman controller, rear end is a 9" with 3.73 Trac Loc and Caltracs, I have Factory Auto Air for Heating and Cooling and don't us a kick up solenoid to control Idle with the ac on, Also have Power steering as well. 

Motor is as follows.

408 Cubes, Block is from a 95 Ford Lightning so it was a factory roller block.

Short Block Consists of Eagle Forged Crank, I-Beam Forged Rods, Ross Pistons, and a Main Girdle with ARP Studs.

Heads are Box Stock AFR 205's (these are the older Nitrous Ported version which are a CNC version if I recall, they are now called outlaw heads I think. I have flow sheets from the heads if you wanna see Real flow numbers off a Super Flow bench.

The springs were changed to match the Comp Hyd Roller Cam that we had Comp Grind as well. Valves are stock untouched from AFR.

The Camshaft is a Comp Custom Hyd Roller grind and the specs are 228/236@50 with 563/571 Lift and ground on a 113 LSA.

I run the Stock Style Hyd Roller lifters for Ford Motorsports along with the stock style retainer and dog bones.. both of which were bought new so I did not use the old spider and dog bones from the motor when I got it.

The intake is an Edelbrock Vic Jr unported but it matched the AFR heads to a T somehow...Carb is an 850 Holley Dbl pumper W/Manual secondaries.

Headers are FRP stepped from 1-3/4" to 1-7/8" into a 3" collector if I recall.

 

We dynode the motor with an HP 950 Carb and 1-7/8 or 2" primary headers on 93 octane pump gas and it responded to the tune of 550.9hp on motor and 659hp on a 125 shot of gas....Torque was over 500lbft at like 4000 RPM's I think? I would have to pull dyno sheets to verify that tho. 

 

All and all I could not ask for a better street friendly pavement pounder that I would drive anywhere.

I have driven the car to and from Cruising the Coast 3 years running, did some of the Hot Rod power tour and recently ran a poker run from Houston to Lake Charles LA with some high end exotics and this motor has been problem free except for the time I had converter issues and burnt the thrust bearing out, but that was MY fault.

Oh I get an average of 20 mpg with the 850 carb and OD transmission Btw LOL.

I have videos of the Idle in park and in drive if you wanna see them... it has become a little to mellow for me and I am wanting to possibly do a cam swap to something more aggressive sounding LOL...

It idles right at 650 RPM's in gear with the AC on and has a nice smooth lope to it hehe

 

 

Mikestang,

 

I was interested in your 4R70W setup for your 408.  I'm doing some research to see if there is another option before I pull the trigger on another AOD.  I got my motor dyno'd finally at Tims Engines and made 430hp so I don't have a crazy horsepower monster like your motor haha.  I was hoping to get some insight on how you went about it.  I researched the Baumann controller but wasn't sure if I need just that and the transmission and I would be in business. 

[MikeStang 247]

Hey RCE Was wondering when I would see ya on here again LOL...Good to know you got that motor up and going.

to answer your 4R70W question...Yes all you really need is the Bauman controller and a 4R70W that is in good working order, along with a flexplate that is the correct balance for your motor.

There are a few Caveats tho... If I recall the bauman controller requires that the transmission have High Impedance Solenoids in the pan, this can be checked by popping off the pan and looking or getting a trans from a year model known to have the high impedance solenoids... but they can be had for cheap from the Ford Dealer and are easy to swap out. 

So heres the list of what ya really need.

 

1. Transmission with converter

2. Bauman Controller with their complete harness

3. Correct Flex-Plate

4. Transmission Cross Member to fit 4R70W...can be modified stock unit or one from Joe Persad

5. Possibly need a new driveshaft or may need your shortened or the Yolk changed to a 4R70w Big yolk depensing on the year 4R70 you get. 

 

That pretty much covers it bud...Sounds like a lot but it isn't.

I recently picked up a sweet deal off of my little mustang sites on facebook, one guy had a complete Bauman controller with harness set up that I got for $400.00 and it was their latest controller, then saw another guy whose mom ran her car hot and burnt the motor up so she gave him the car and he was parting it, and she had just had the transmission replaced by a reputable shop in Baton Rouge, when it showed up at my house and we pulled it out of the back of his truck you could tell it was fresh and even came with a brand spanking new converter and flexplate LMAO.. Paid $150.00 for that... So right now I got $550.00 in the setup Im going to put into my 66... Just keep your eyes open the stuff pops up all the time....

You can use a 4R70 that comes from behind a V6 also btw, don't have to be a V8 donor, long as the bell housing is the same it will work, but you just have to remember they are not all created equal and some are better than others

[BuckeyeDemon 211]

Oh I get an average of 20 mpg with the 850 carb and OD transmission Btw LOL.

 

average of 20 mph seems really hard to believe.  i had tracked the mileage and fuel for two years on mine and it was in the 11-12 range. (418, TKO600/ .64 overdrive / 4.11 gear).

[MikeStang 247]

Yeah I thought the same thing Buckeye.

I was running a 3.25 Gear then swapped to a 3.73.

The way I figured it was pretty simple, I filled the tank up till it was about as full as it would go, then drove from Baton Rouge to Houston and filled up when I reached my destination, had the GPS logged mileage, and knew how many gallons it took to fill it back up...Yeah its not a super scientific method but seemed to get me pretty damn close... It was hard keeping my foot out of it for that long drive, and I never exceeded 70 or so.

[BuckeyeDemon 211]

Yeah I thought the same thing Buckeye.

I was running a 3.25 Gear then swapped to a 3.73.

The way I figured it was pretty simple, I filled the tank up till it was about as full as it would go, then drove from Baton Rouge to Houston and filled up when I reached my destination, had the GPS logged mileage, and knew how many gallons it took to fill it back up...Yeah its not a super scientific method but seemed to get me pretty damn close... It was hard keeping my foot out of it for that long drive, and I never exceeded 70 or so.

so, basically car warmed up, mileage reset and fueled up, then one long highway drive trying not to get on it and then refueled.  definitively "average".

[Mach1 Driver 560]

MikeStang- any chance we could see your idle video's? I left you a message, thanks