borgeson review after 4K miles

[bryonbush 85]

Well i thought i would post this for those looking into the swap. This spring i did the swap in my 69 convertible w/ 351w and Dougs Try-y (D669Y) headers. Your only option the get the new box in (and the old one for that matter) was to either remove the headers or the power brake booster/master cylinder. then in goes the new unit. the pump sits about 1" away from the headers, but no rubbing issues.

I tried to use my stock ford pump but it wasn't strong enough and the hoses that Borgeson uses would run right into the exhaust. So i bout the new pump from them. once the hoses are on they sit way too close to the headers. I didn't use any thread sealer on the hose ends, just tightened and went.

So after 4K+ miles on it ive came to the conclusion that im not a fan. While it handles nicely, there was more play in the steering wheel than what i thought there should be. But it's a very responsive unit. Down side is, as time goes on the more this thing leaks. The hoses going into the box always leak no matter how much i tighten them down. Now there's a leak from the top plate on the box and possibly somewhere down below. I'm needing to put my car on a lift to let it run to see where exactly it's leaking from. But due to its location, it's pretty difficult to do without burning off your skin. 

Hus65 posted a while back his hose routing procedure which is pretty nice. We were talking about it and he stated his is leaking from below after only 50 miles. There are a lot of others on corvette forums who seem to have leaking issues too. I think with the hoses and box being as close to the headers as they are, they are boiling the fluid and eating away at seals. Hus65 ran his setup into a cooler and the hoses away from the hot parts so i think he would have better long term success compared to myself and others.

[lanky 44]

I haven't had any leak problems yet, but I am not a fan either just from how the car drives. Once I understood the geometric flaws of the box I was actually pretty upset and made me wish I had rebuilt the stock P/S or gone rack and pinion (not perfect either ugh). Maybe I don't have leaks yet because I still have cast iron manifolds. 

[Machspeed 219]

I too am considering this mod, as I'm tired of that leaky rack. Strange, but I've read many good reviews on this setup. I believe Borgeson redesigned the box a bit and also made it a 14:1 unit. Is that the unit that you have? 

[bryonbush 85]

Yes I have the 14:1 box. Yesterday I removed the pressure line and put some thread sealer on the ends to see if that helps.

[machm1970 180]

I don't have any fluid in mine yet and it's still on jack stands. I have everything tightened up and there seems to be too much play in mine too. If I put a cloth tape measure on the column where it meets the back of the steering wheel it moves 1". So far I'm not impressed, it seems Borgeson has kinks to work out.

Matt

[bryonbush 85]

some of that will tighten up when pressure is added but I'm with ya that i was expecting more in terms of tightness in the steering wheel

[1969_Mach1 333]

What you fell as "play" in the steering wheel is probably relative movement between the inner and outer parts of the spool valve.  This relative movement must occur for the spool valve to direct fluid to provide power assist.  Without that movement, no play in the steering and also no power steering.

 

NOT MY THUMBNAIL

[machm1970 180]

You're probably right. I'm anxious to get things together and see how it feels running on the ground.

Matt

[sixt9stang 36]

I'm really surprised more people are not going with an electric setup and saying goodbye to leaks forever.

[1969_Mach1 333]

For a 1969 Mustang, look under the dash of a car with a manual trans.  There is no room for an electric setup. 

[larryc94 38]

For a 1969 Mustang, look under the dash of a car with a manual trans.  There is no room for an electric setup. ons slight

There is, may not look like but does fit, I have a '70.  Also have clutch to deal with, one piece has to be omitted, the brace from lower right booster stud to bottom of dash that has 3/8th sheet metal screw in the bottom of dash.  Motor clocked at 4:00.

 

Had factory P/S, gone are the leaks and the slop of the control valve.  Have assist at idle and in fact have assist with key on engine off

[lanky 44]

Hi LarryC, can you describe how well your electric setup drives and where you got it/type? I have heard that these setups can also have return to center issues because of the way they function, however since newer cars come with them maybe this is not true. Anyway I have been thinking about electric steering for quite a while as I am unhappy with my Borgeson. Too bad no one makes a manual steering box with a quicker ratio, that would be awesome.

[jgkurz 52]

I am in the middle of a Borgeson install myself and now have second thoughts. I am into the project about $1000.00 and still have the ability to back out without much consequences. My engine is out so I need to get this resolved beforehand. 

 

Maybe I need to start a new post. Has ANYONE ever had a successful Borgeson install in their 69-70 Mustang?!?!?!?!?

 

Successful to me means the feel is good at low and high speeds and the return to center actually works. 

 

-John

[Machspeed 219]

I am in the middle of a Borgeson install myself and now have second thoughts. I am into the project about $1000.00 and still have the ability to back out without much consequences. My engine is out so I need to get this resolved beforehand. 

 

Maybe I need to start a new post. Has ANYONE ever had a successful Borgeson install in their 69-70 Mustang?!?!?!?!?

 

Successful to me means the feel is good at low and high speeds and the return to center actually works. 

 

-John

Actually, I wish you would. My car is undergoing a restoration and I had planned to purchase this setup. I've read many good things about it but it seems lately I'm seeing a lot of negativity. 

[1969_Mach1 333]

I don't know.  I kind of think some of the complaints are subjective (other than leaks).  Much depends on what you are used to driving on a daily basis, the steering feel might be bad for some and fine for others.  Does your daily driver have rack and pinion steering or a worm and sector power steering box?  Have you driven cars from the 1970's and 1980's with worm and sector power steering boxes for long periods of time so you are used to their steering feel? 

[jgkurz 52]

Actually, I wish you would. My car is undergoing a restoration and I had planned to purchase this setup. I've read many good things about it but it seems lately I'm seeing a lot of negativity. 

 

 

Ok, I started a new thread. We'll see who responds. Crossing my fingers we get good news.

[jgkurz 52]

I don't know.  I kind of think some of the complaints are subjective (other than leaks).  Much depends on what you are used to driving on a daily basis, the steering feel might be bad for some and fine for others.  Does your daily driver have rack and pinion steering or a worm and sector power steering box?  Have you driven cars from the 1970's and 1980's with worm and sector power steering boxes for long periods of time so you are used to their steering feel? 

 

I agree with your comments but there is some basic functionality needs to be present regardless. In my opinion, return to center and a noticeable power assist are an absolute must.

[stangs-R-me 120]

I've still got the factory manual on mine and at least it is the faster ratio GT/Mach 1 box.

 

Can't do the Borgeson because I want to keep the stock z-bar.

 

Refuse to go stock slave cylinder set up as I had it on my Fairlane but still hated the "zero-feel" even after replacing everything and getting it completely leak free.

 

Any hydraulic assist system is just going to cram more crap in that corner of the engine compartment that is already too full with PDB & Z-Bar, so I don't think I would want to go to any of the available "Rack based" systems either. For me, a Rack System would have to be a clean sheet design, simple & accessible plumbing that is away from exhaust / does not leak, had no down sides to the geometry, was a true bolt-in, and reasonably priced. A guy can dream huh ??

 

So that leaves me with the EPAS conversion option. I've looked into it, but I really don't drive the car enough to make the money spent and the effort to do the conversion right worth it.

 

Having a manual steering car around is a good conversation piece and it is kinda fun to still have the experience available for myself and others !!

 

Thanks all for sharing the down sides to the Borgeson conversion as it makes me feel better since I can't have it anyway !!

 

 

Doug

[larryc94 38]

Hi LarryC, can you describe how well your electric setup drives and where you got it/type? I have heard that these setups can also have return to center issues because of the way they function, however since newer cars come with them maybe this is not true. Anyway I have been thinking about electric steering for quite a while as I am unhappy with my Borgeson. Too bad no one makes a manual steering box with a quicker ratio, that would be awesome.

I did the Equinox-Vue conversion, I like it, it's much tighter than the factory P/S.   Underhood and steering linkage is cleaner looking and no leaks.

 

The return is not bad, one thing that helps is to use a stock idler with the rubber bushings. You have to install the OEM rubber bushing idler with the wheels straight ahead, as you go left or right the bushing twists and wants to go back to center.  Ford designed it that way and if you use a roller arm you change the way Ford designed it.

 

Larry

[sixt9stang 36]

Good info, thanks Larry!

[Vicfreg 772]

I did the Borgeson upgrade on my '68 which originally came with manual steering.   I am very happy with the install.  I have no leaks.   I did have to make a caster adjustment (I finally read their instructions) to get the car to stop that "hunting" behavior when the steering wheel was in the center position. Once I did that, it totally changed how the car handled.   I have 16" inch rims with stock height tires, and 1" inch lower in the front, so I could not get all the caster they recommended, but it works great now.  

 

My advice is to find a good front end alignment shop. I found an old school guy who had a vintage "Bear" alignment rack...totally manual with no computers.  That did the trick.   The dumbasses that work at these alignment shops these days can't do any custom (add more caster) adjustments.....they don't know how.

 

To avoid the Z-bar problem, I went with a cable clutch, which I am also very happy with.   I also put heat wrap (DEI) on my power steering lines, as they are pretty close to my Tri-Y headers.   No problems noted there.

 

I plan to do the same upgrade on my 1970 project. Will have to change to the manual drag link as it was originally a power steering car.

[Machspeed 219]

I did the Borgeson upgrade on my '68 which originally came with manual steering.   I am very happy with the install.  I have no leaks.   I did have to make a caster adjustment (I finally read their instructions) to get the car to stop that "hunting" behavior when the steering wheel was in the center position. Once I did that, it totally changed how the car handled.   I have 16" inch rims with stock height tires, and 1" inch lower in the front, so I could not get all the caster they recommended, but it works great now.  

 

My advice is to find a good front end alignment shop. I found an old school guy who had a vintage "Bear" alignment rack...totally manual with no computers.  That did the trick.   The dumbasses that work at these alignment shops these days can't do any custom (add more caster) adjustments.....they don't know how.

 

To avoid the Z-bar problem, I went with a cable clutch, which I am also very happy with.   I also put heat wrap (DEI) on my power steering lines, as they are pretty close to my Tri-Y headers.   No problems noted there.

 

I plan to do the same upgrade on my 1970 project. Will have to change to the manual drag link as it was originally a power steering car.

Thank you! There are at least two of us here now looking seriously at this setup. Seems hit and miss with some liking it and others not so much. Is your box the the 16:1 or the 14:1 unit?

 

John

[Vicfreg 772]

Hi John. I have the 14:1 on my 1968. I will run the same setup on my 1970.  I am very happy with it.   I may run longer hoses through the fenderwells to avoid problems with my headers on the 1970.

[Machspeed 219]

Vic, is your 70 a power steering equipped car or a manual steering car?

[bryonbush 85]

lets give an update. I spent $70 to get new hoses made that run down under the car and back up to the pump. all was working great till the other day. Took to down the driveway and i see smoke from under the hood and the awful smell of trans fluid. Pop the hood and the top seals blew out which made a mess of things. So today ive pulled the driver side headers and removed the box. I wrote Borgeson an email about it and waiting for a response. ill probably end up calling them to see what they say for a repair.

 

With that said, im not too happy with this whole set up. I dont really know how some guys have had such great success while others like myself have had non stop issues. One guy on the VMF facebook page said he had to pull his 3 times and now it's finally correct and problem free. So now im at a tough spot with where to go from here. do i repair it, then sell it and go rack or hope for the best again?