Which Suspension

[nickjames138 15]

Hey guys, 

 

I want better handling in my car. I want it to handle like a newer car (some say you can't do it, others say you can get it better than a newer car). I started out with 5k in mind, but I just got a quote from TCP for $10,500. Now that's a complete suspension (Rack, Upper and lower, coilover, strut rods, antiroll, pumps, hoses etc for front, Subframe Connectors and G-bar coilover setup with antiroll in the rear). I definitely want the internals of my car to be brand new since I'm slowly transforming this car into a daily driver for decades to come. 

 

I'm just double checking my work to make sure this is the route I should go or are there components I should switch out from TCP to another brand? Also, I would love to have a lower cost, but I've heard that Unisteer is a cheap rack from a few different shops. I've also heard cons about Flaming River. 

 

Who has switched to a Rack? How do you feel about it? 

 

As of now I have a pretty stock car with a fairly new manual steering box, Willwood disks all around, 18" wheels and it's fun to drive. I'm just getting sick of manual and I'd like it to handle better around corners and be easier to drive. 

[barnett468 418]

you could not pay me to use a rack and pinion . had several different types including tcp on several different mustangs and they were all crap . complete waste of money . there is zero wrong with the factory steering when the parts are not worn out

 

i would also not delete the shock towers unless you have a show car . there is zero benefit to doing that and you cant see it when you are driving anyway.

 

since you seem to have unlimited funds, i would run the following

 

tcp upper control arms

 

roller bearing perches

 

roller bearing idler arm but you will loose sone automatic return to center with it which you can slightly compensate for by running more caster like around 4 degrees . some people run 6 . some run 2 1/2.

 

bilstein or koni shocks

 

520 rate front springs

 

145 rate rear springs

 

15/16" front sway bar

 

if your steering box is worn, get the gear refaced or buy a borgeson.

 

looks like your front wheels will hit at some point.

 

you could also buy magnetic shocks which are around $4000.00 a set.

.

[nickjames138 15]

So let me ask some questions because I've been doing my research before jumping into this project and everyone seems to have complete opposite opinions (such is life). First, to clarify, I don't have unlimited funds! I wanted to completely redo my suspension for 5k, but I want my car to be similar to the Detroit Speed cars that I see (Detroit speed is REALLY expensive!). I've been following every post you write stating that I can get my stock suspension to handle just as good as a new car if not better. I would love if I could save some money I just thought that in order for my car to be the ultimate Daily driver I would eventually need to switch to a Rack as well as all new suspension. 

 

a few questions: why do you hate Racks? is it a preference or do you truly believe it will drive/handle worse than factory? 

I've heard really great things about Borgeson, but then I've heard that with a borgeson I will still have play in the wheel as well as less responsive than a rack. 

I've also been told that every new car has a Rack so progressively that's the best option. 

 

Again, I'm just weighing my options before diving in and spending money to find out I didn't go the right route and have to double pay. 

 

Thanks for the help

[MikeStang 247]

Nick I have done the math and kicked it around countless times and my car is pretty much complete and I am starting on my Sons 66 Coupe and going a different route with the suspension on it than I did my 69.

 

I helped my best friend totally upgrade his 69 front suspension, and we went with all Opentracker Roller goodies, drop coils, Konis, He added a Rack which for the past 6 years has been flawless.... On my car I did all the same things he did Except I used the Factory PS set up which I rebuilt and it has been wonderful.... Now here's the kicker, and Why I am going a different route with my sons 66 coupe.

 

Here's a quick Run Down

If you buy all upgraded front end goodies like we did and go roller and say you have a good working non leaking Factory PS heres what your going to spend.

 

Stock UCA (Moog) from open tracker - $225.00

Roller LCA (Open Tracker) - $270.00

Tie Rod Ends (Inner and Outer) - $100.00

Roller Idler Arm - $50.00

Camber Kit $95.00

Roller Spring Perches - $199.00

Upgraded Sway Bar and Links - $112

New Coil Springs $90

Shocks (Koni Classic From CJ Pony) $571.00

Adjustable Strut Rods - $250.00

---------------- Total So Far - $1962.00 Plus $50.00 in shipping with No tax = $2012.00

Steering Box rebuild $100.00 if yours is rebuildable

If you don't have a PS set up add about $100 or more for buying one that needs a rebuild and another $100 for the rebuild parts at most... SO GRAND TOTAL $2313.00

Now Granted my car handles Great with all this stuff BUT....

 

Option #2.

Speedway Motors Mustang 2 Front suspension kit runs as follows.

 

Cross Member kit - $299.00

Complete Front Suspension kit Which includes, Tubular Upper and lower Control arms with screw in ball joints, Carerra Coil Over Shocks and Springs, Rack & Pinion Power Unit, Complete Front Brake Set-Up with new rotors, pads, calipers etc.., and all the nuts and bolts and hoses...

You will end up needing motor mounts and a few odds and ends pieces - $1379.00

SHIPPING IS FREE.

So go ahead and add another $200.00 For the misc stuff you might need and 150.00 for motor mounts and you have to have a rear sump oil pan

Grand Total for option #2 --- $2028.00.

 

So what are the good and bad of both?

 

Stock upgraded stuff bolts right in, and fits good with no fab work... and performs Great.

Down Side of Stock stuff is non adjustable ride height and its 40 year old tech, altho its good stuff.

 

Mustang 2 Advantages -- Newer Technology, Adjustable ride height, Cheaper, lighter in the front when its done, better ride, removed shock towers so more room under the hood, remove strut rod braces for cleaner appearance, Rack and Pinion has better road feel than stock for PS...

So My direction in life is set with M2 suspension for my sons 66 Coupe... Its cheaper and a little better plus it looks cooler, but I am gonna run my 69 with stock upgraded stuff like I stole it.

[MikeStang 247]

Not sure where your at Nick but if your close to Louisiana You can drive my car with stock upgraded goodies and Ford PS and drive my buddies with all the same stuff but with a Rack and you can easily tell the difference.

My car has No feedback from the steering wheel, and you can easily over compensate and have an accident if your not experienced a bit with how they handle...My buddies with a rack has good road feel and its very predictable

[nickjames138 15]

Mikestang, what type of rack is in the M2? Once I started considering racks I've heard bad things about every rack except for tcp and nobody really knows Randall rack, but I've heard one guy say he loves his. I've heard unisteer and flaming river are cheap products. I think the way I see it is if I do the job with all updated tech I want to get it right the first time instead of cutting corners to save money. I don't want to buy a complete kit and find out that kit has a few parts that are cheap to cut costs (not saying it does just asking if it does?)

 

I think the type of ride that you described (predictable, better road feel) is what I want, so I'm wondering if Barnett just prefers the old handling better which is really awesome and fun to drive! But on hot days in Los Angeles sometimes I just want an easy drive.

[SM69Mach 68]

Hey Nick, 

 

As I mentioned in your other suspension thread, I would call Shaun at Street or Track.  He has all of the options, from the roller perches to full coil over set up, with different shock options.  I am using a unisteer that Shaun recommended and I could not be happier.  It is a solid kit  and works great.  Good feedback, good road feel, much better than what I had previously.  I wanted power set up, with a big block and large tires, I needed a power setup.  There are certainly a lot of options out there, but I could not be happier with my suspension and steering set up. 

 

Even if you don't buy from Shaun he is a great to talk with and will give you a lot of info.  

 

Scott 

[nickjames138 15]

Hey Nick,

 

As I mentioned in your other suspension thread, I would call Shaun at Street or Track. He has all of the options, from the roller perches to full coil over set up, with different shock options. I am using a unisteer that Shaun recommended and I could not be happier. It is a solid kit and works great. Good feedback, good road feel, much better than what I had previously. I wanted power set up, with a big block and large tires, I needed a power setup. There are certainly a lot of options out there, but I could not be happier with my suspension and steering set up.

 

Even if you don't buy from Shaun he is a great to talk with and will give you a lot of info.

 

Scott

Yes! I spoke with Shaun! Awesome dude! I heard from two different shops that they don't care for unisteer, but it's great to hear from someone who has the unisteer and loves it! How long have you had it? Any problems?

[SM69Mach 68]

Yes! I spoke with Shaun! Awesome dude! I heard from two different shops that they don't care for unisteer, but it's great to hear from someone who has the unisteer and loves it! How long have you had it? Any problems?

 

I really like Shaun.  I talked with him several times before buying from him and never felt any pressure to buy anything at all.  

 

I have had it on the car for a couple of years now.  I don't drive it at much as I would like, and with some other issues the car was in the shop more last year than on the road.  I could say it has a couple of thousand miles on it with zero issue.  I had heard people talk about the turning radius of the R&P's but to be honest I can turn so much sooner now than I could with my previous set up this is a non issue for me.  I could even turn the wheel before unless I was moving forward.  

 

Did the shops provide any specifics about why they didn't like the unisteer?  Was it the complete kit?  The rack itself?  

[nickjames138 15]

I really like Shaun.  I talked with him several times before buying from him and never felt any pressure to buy anything at all.  

 

I have had it on the car for a couple of years now.  I don't drive it at much as I would like, and with some other issues the car was in the shop more last year than on the road.  I could say it has a couple of thousand miles on it with zero issue.  I had heard people talk about the turning radius of the R&P's but to be honest I can turn so much sooner now than I could with my previous set up this is a non issue for me.  I could even turn the wheel before unless I was moving forward.  

 

Did the shops provide any specifics about why the didn't like the unisteer?  Was it the complete kit?  The rack itself?  

 

The shops both said it's a cheaper Rack. They both didn't have much to say other than it was a cheaper piece and the TCP is more durable. But if you've had yours for a while now and still love it maybe I should just go that route and save the $1200. 

[MikeStang 247]

My buddies Rack is a Randal's Rack and pinion unit, and it took some work to get it in I know that much. Its an extremely tight fit to the oil pan but it was well worth doing.

With my rebuilt steering box and Factory ford PS that I rebuilt at speeds above 75 you better have your shit together if you have to make an emergency maneuver...ie something in the road like a 4x4 Post that you just KNOW wont fit under your car... Yeah jerking the wheel like you would on a new one or even on a rack equipped car leads to extreme movements.

The shop I had do the alignment a few months back after I swapped in the Camber kit called me after the alignment and told me it was ready so when I went to pick it up the owner of the shop who is also an old car guy who builds his own stuff like we do asked me What in the hell I had done to the steering set-up... He does all the alignments on the old cars and he said when he went and drove the car after the alignment that the steering was so tight and touchy he actually felt a bit hesitant to put it on the interstate at speed... I told him it was all factory and I rebuilt it all...His response was "I think you did to good of a job LOL" But seriously tho the factory power steering if rebuilt right is nice to drive in parking lots and lower in town cruising speeds but better have your big boy pants on once you break 75 and do some performance driving.

[MikeStang 247]

The Rack that comes with the Mustang 2 kit I believe is a GM Rack and I don't recall them having 2 much trouble out of GM racks LOL but I could be wrong...Im gonna give it a try I know that much.

And hey if it works out good in the 66 I am going to swap to M2 suspension in the 69 probably so I will have a nice Power steering unit for sale maybe haha

[rwcstang 201]

I really like Shaun.  I talked with him several times before buying from him and never felt any pressure to buy anything at all.  

 

I have had it on the car for a couple of years now.  I don't drive it at much as I would like, and with some other issues the car was in the shop more last year than on the road.  I could say it has a couple of thousand miles on it with zero issue.  I had heard people talk about the turning radius of the R&P's but to be honest I can turn so much sooner now than I could with my previous set up this is a non issue for me.  I could even turn the wheel before unless I was moving forward.  

 

Did the shops provide any specifics about why the didn't like the unisteer?  Was it the complete kit?  The rack itself?  

 

Same here, I recently emailed him about my UCA squeaking and he asked to me to confirm and he will replace the heim joints, I bought his suspension around 2011-12. Shaun is a great person to talk to. 

[barnett468 418]

i don't hate racks . it's just that these cars are not designed for racks and the way they mount is bogus and the racks are outdated and are designed for different suspension and they all have the same problem of incorrect geometry near full wheel lock.

 

a new borgeson doesn't have play . anyone that put one in and said it had play had other problems that they were blaming on the box . you cant believe everything you read in a magazine or on the internet.

 

you might want to consider that they raced these cars with basically stock steering at 150 mph.

 

once again, there is zero, nada, zilch wrong with stock type steering when ALL the parts are in good condition . the only thing some might prefer is a higher steering ratio.

 

a rack will NOT get you out of the way of a 2 x 4 any faster than a stock system that is in good condition, it simply aint gonna happen.

[Rsanter 152]

I don't like the racks in the early mustang unless you are installing a completely different suspension system that is designed for the rack.

All the systems I have seen out there have some sort of compromise because the car was never designed for R&P. Some companies do certain things right and get other aspects of the geometry wrong. While other companies get a different aspect right and yet a different wrong.

I have yet to see anyone get it all right on a conversion bolt in.

 

I installed the CPP integral box into my 69 and like it a lot. It was not as easy as I though and they warned me that it was not for the 69 but I went with it anyway and had to dent the back of the drivers tower to get it in there.

If I did it again I would just go ahead and get the borgeson.

 

If you want handling and ride more like a new car, one of the first things to look at are the variable rate springs. I prefer the ones from Eibach. I have them in both convertable and really like them.

 

You need to decide what you really want/expect out of that car. I have made these cars handle great with lowering the upper arms, good springs and shocks and a proper alignment. And of course good tires.

Many people today want or think they want more than that out of these cars these days but do you really want that or just think you do?

That is going to be based on what you want to do with the car.

 

Bob

[1969_Mach1 333]

I installed the CPP integral box into my 69 and like it a lot. It was not as easy as I though and they warned me that it was not for the 69 but I went with it anyway and had to dent the back of the drivers tower to get it in there.

If I did it again I would just go ahead and get the borgeson.

 

 

Bob

 

I am currently installing the Borgeson kit in my 69 Mach 1.  I went back and forth between CPP and Borgeson.  The CPP box is also advertised for 69 and 70 Mustangs.  When CPP's support told me I would need to modify my shock tower with a hammer and maybe a torch, then claimed "they don't know why" that was enough to decide on Borgeson.

[nickjames138 15]

I thought of going the Borgeson route with all updated arms, springs, etc but I think the feel I'm trying to achieve is the feel that SM69Mach and MikeStang described. A better road feel and the feeling like if maneuver at high speed I won't lose my shit! I want it to be more responsive. I drive on the Los Angeles freeway quite often. 

 

I don't like the racks in the early mustang unless you are installing a completely different suspension system that is designed for the rack.
All the systems I have seen out there have some sort of compromise because the car was never designed for R&P. Some companies do certain things right and get other aspects of the geometry wrong. While other companies get a different aspect right and yet a different wrong.
I have yet to see anyone get it all right on a conversion bolt in.

I installed the CPP integral box into my 69 and like it a lot. It was not as easy as I though and they warned me that it was not for the 69 but I went with it anyway and had to dent the back of the drivers tower to get it in there.
If I did it again I would just go ahead and get the borgeson.

If you want handling and ride more like a new car, one of the first things to look at are the variable rate springs. I prefer the ones from Eibach. I have them in both convertable and really like them.

You need to decide what you really want/expect out of that car. I have made these cars handle great with lowering the upper arms, good springs and shocks and a proper alignment. And of course good tires.
Many people today want or think they want more than that out of these cars these days but do you really want that or just think you do?
That is going to be based on what you want to do with the car.

Bob

 Bob, what don't you like about them? 

 

I'm wondering if it's all preference in how people like their car to feel. Do you like it to have that old car handling feel? Therefore changing to a rack will completely eliminate that old car feel? Or do you truly think the handling is easier/better with new factory components? 

 

If I do the Rack I'm going all in with front and read coilovers, sub frame connectors, antisway, etc etc So would this meant is should do by getting a "completely different suspension system that is designed for the rack" ? 

[Rsanter 152]

I am currently installing the Borgeson kit in my 69 Mach 1.  I went back and forth between CPP and Borgeson.  The CPP box is also advertised for 69 and 70 Mustangs.  When CPP's support told me I would need to modify my shock tower with a hammer and maybe a torch, then claimed "they don't know why" that was enough to decide on Borgeson.

When I met CPP at SEMA I was talking with them about installing their steering box into the 69. They said they though it would work but they had not had a car to try it in. I liked the idea that it was an all new box verses a reconditioned modified box that borgeson had. Borgeson also had issues going on with return to center at the time.

I bought the box only at a nice discount and decided I was going to make my own lines and use my exsisting pump. I did not like the idea of the Chevy pump and the way they route the hoses.

The amount I had to dent the tower was about 1/4" and it is not really seen. If you have the wrap around towers then no dice it will be really tough.

CPP now knows what it takes because I documented the process and sent them the information

 

Bob

[Rsanter 152]

I thought of going the Borgeson route with all updated arms, springs, etc but I think the feel I'm trying to achieve is the feel that SM69Mach and MikeStang described. A better road feel and the feeling like if maneuver at high speed I won't lose my shit! I want it to be more responsive. I drive on the Los Angeles freeway quite often. 

 

 

 Bob, what don't you like about them? 

 

I'm wondering if it's all preference in how people like their car to feel. Do you like it to have that old car handling feel? Therefore changing to a rack will completely eliminate that old car feel? Or do you truly think the handling is easier/better with new factory components? 

 

If I do the Rack I'm going all in with front and read coilovers, sub frame connectors, antisway, etc etc So would this meant is should do by getting a "completely different suspension system that is designed for the rack" ?

 

Overall I like R&P if the car/suspension was designed for it. What I don't like is when they do the conversion nobody is getting all of the geometry correct. You are always loosing something.

A whole new suspension system is like a conversion to Detroit speed or mustang II. You are changing all the points and you are changing the spindles.

A conversion to coil over and tube arms that use basically the same mount points is not a new system but rather just an upgraded stockish system. While there is nothing wrong with that, it is still not designed for use with the R&P.

 

Now, if you want a cruiser and you are never going to track the car, you will likly never really know all the compromises that a R&P conversion may have. However if you are going to push the car and you have some driving skill, you will learn or feel some of the geometry compromises.

This is why those high end blank slate suspension conversion are so good. They update all the geometry to modern specs and you will truly get the handling and ride qualities that can be found with 40 year newer technology

 

IMO, the borgeson type power steering conversion is one of the best things to happen to our cars in a long time. You have a nice upgrade at a resonable cost that does not diminish from the original geometry.

 

Your other choice would be a conversion to manual and then the addition of electric power steering

 

Bob

[barnett468 418]

 

I thought of going the Borgeson route with all updated arms, springs, etc but I think the feel I'm trying to achieve is the feel that SM69Mach and MikeStang described. A better road feel and the feeling like if maneuver at high speed I won't lose my shit! I want it to be more responsive. I drive on the Los Angeles freeway quite often.

 

Ok, install the tcp upper arm with 1" drop, 610 front springs, 200 lb rear springs, 1 1/8" front sway bar, 5/8" rear sway bar, watts link, koni shocks set on firm, higher ratio steering box, roller bearing idler arm, roller spring perches, heim joint strut rods, export brace, rallye bar, sub frame connectors....or buy a ferrari.

 

you can also add a shock tower reinforcement kit.

[1969_Mach1 333]

When I met CPP at SEMA I was talking with them about installing their steering box into the 69. They said they though it would work but they had not had a car to try it in. I liked the idea that it was an all new box verses a reconditioned modified box that borgeson had. Borgeson also had issues going on with return to center at the time.

I bought the box only at a nice discount and decided I was going to make my own lines and use my exsisting pump. I did not like the idea of the Chevy pump and the way they route the hoses.

The amount I had to dent the tower was about 1/4" and it is not really seen. If you have the wrap around towers then no dice it will be really tough.

CPP now knows what it takes because I documented the process and sent them the information

 

Bob

 

I was concerned about the Borgeson box being a reconditioned piece.  But now they are building complete new box, casting, everything.  I was surprised when I saw it.  Still has some metric bolts, but the fittings seem to be standard 5/8" inverted flare.

 

I have the shock tower reinforcement kit installed.  The Borgeson box easily clears the wrap around braces.  There was one small angle bracket I had to remove.  The steering box mounting holes were off by about 1/8" with it installed.  I could have spent about 10 minutes and much more easily clearanced the steering box in a very small area and left the angle bracket installed.  My fear was I would void any warranty on the steering box.

[MikeStang 247]

Barnett I never said a R&P would get me out of the way of anything faster LOL, my problem is with the overly strong Stock style Power steering that provides absolutely NO road feedback...Its got the working strength of Ronnie Coleman using 5 pound dumbs and doing curls...WAY TO STRONG, and you gotta have it all together if you need to make a fast wheel jerk because you can WAY OVERCOMPENSATE with the stock power steering.

 

I am doing the Mustang 2 conversion so I will have some feedback in a few months hopefully LOL.

But all in all the stock stuff with all the upgrades is Great and works perfectly fine, but for less money you can get same performance with the M2 suspension but you get the added advantages of adjustable ride height, more selection of springs to adjust ride quality and handling, shock tower delete which I know we all would love to have so we could have more room under the hood.

Its a Win Win with the M2 suspension IMHO

[DarkBuddha 107]

I'm late to this discussion (in researching SoT stuff) and wanted to comment on the CPP vs. Bargeson boxes. When I was looking into steering options, I looked at all the vendors for integrated ps, and CPP'so part numbers were the same as Borgeson'so and included the same parts/components. Knowing that Borgeson was manufacturing their boxes in-house (they are OEM suppliers afterall), I figure(d) CPP is just selling Borgeson boxes. This would explain why they didn't have comprehensive experience/knowledge regarding fitment for different years.

[nickjames138 15]

So, I think Barnett and Rsanter will be pleased to know that I have dropped my ideas of welding in a new suspension. I still haven't made up my mind on how to improve my steering and suspension, but I know I want to switch to a front coilover kit, crossmember, sway bar, borgeson PS, new leafs in the rear etc etc. I would love to make my life alot easier and just go with one company to do the entire update. I spoke on the phone with Global West and really liked what the rep was explaining about their product. However, TCP has such an impact on the forums...

 

So, is there a huge difference? It seems like they have the same setups just executed slightly different. My mind is still spinning on all of the components, but I do understand that when you cut out shock towers and weld in new components you're screwing up the entire geometry that the car is built on. 

 

Global west vs. TCP anyone? 

[barnett468 418]

Barnett I never said a R&P would get me out of the way of anything faster LOL, my problem is with the overly strong Stock style Power steering that provides absolutely NO road feedback...Its got the working strength of Ronnie Coleman using 5 pound dumbs and doing curls...WAY TO STRONG, and you gotta have it all together if you need to make a fast wheel jerk because you can WAY OVERCOMPENSATE with the stock power steering.

 

I am doing the Mustang 2 conversion so I will have some feedback in a few months hopefully LOL.

But all in all the stock stuff with all the upgrades is Great and works perfectly fine, but for less money you can get same performance with the M2 suspension but you get the added advantages of adjustable ride height, more selection of springs to adjust ride quality and handling, shock tower delete which I know we all would love to have so we could have more room under the hood.

Its a Win Win with the M2 suspension IMHO

 

ummm...i have been driving these cars since 1970 and have ZERO problems with controlling these cars with power steering, therefore, it is the driver not the power steering that is the issue . this being said, it sounds to me

like you want a lower steering ratio.

 

no we all do not want to butcher are cars by removing the shock towers.

 

most of us don't need feedback on the crappy aftermarket rack and pinion units either.