Should I build a 408W or 408C, a little wordy

[prayers1 153]

As some of you know, I had to tear down my 357C for leaking valves. As I sit there staring at the engine compartment with just a short block & trans, I'm contemplating now would be the time to change torque converters and build another motor. 

 

I have a stout AOD and a 28 spline 9" w/ 4:11's, I want to build a Stroker either a Windsor or Cleveland, in addition I want to add a Power Brake booster and maybe some sort of Power Steering.  I don't want to get carried away with Torque & Horsepower above 550, but both can easily achieve that.

 

With the popularity of Stroker Kits and new developments of Alloy heads, both W & C prices have come down with the Cleveland just a little more pricey.

 

Here are my thoughts:

The Cleveland has thinner walls making it hard to go past  0.30. On the oiling side there are options for Oiling mods, which I already did with the 357C.

Plus my car is already set up for the Cleveland, such as radiator, water pump, Intake, Distributor, Shorty Headers, Valve Covers, fuel pump  etc..

I would have to change my front coil springs because of differences in motor weight.

Also, I have a big graphic sticker on the side of my car "351 Boss".

Just pulling spark plug wires on a Cleveland with tall Valve Covers is a chore, imagine changing plugs.

Another thought, I'd like to use long tube headers, with the shorty headers, one tube is a papers width away from the shock tower, this goes to show how tight the Cleveland's are, they have (small block short blocks) & (big block heads). The heads and tall valve covers prevented me from using a power brake booster.

 

 

The only thing I can see going for the W is better oiling, thicker walls and smaller heads allowing the ease of headers, change of spark plugs and the use of a power brake booster.

I would have to get all new external components such as oil pan, headers, intake, Dist, water pump, Alt brackets, Radiator and whatever else I can't remember for now.

 

The WOW factor for me is that the Windsor is smaller and must be a lot easier to work on.

 

What do you think?

[ray1970 88]

We always hope we dont have to work on them more than we want to..

I think in the end for me it would come down to budget.

If budget is not a problem why not try something new it my just work for you..

 

Yes the header on the LH side is a bit close to the tower from what i see it has no affect on anything.

351W do give you a little more elbow room if you have to work on it..

Power booster is realy not a problem....Unless you are changing plugs..

[1969_Mach1 333]

Tough one.  The Windsor can be bored more than 0.030", but not without possible overheating heating issues.  The Windsor has a longer connecting rod with has a positive affect on the torque curve.  Can't deny physics on that one.  Being more of a purist than a resto-mod person, my path would be if it were a 1970 car I would say Cleveland, but for a 1969 car I'd use a Windsor.

 

For power brakes:  Since you have an automatic trans look at the booster Tuff Stuff sells.  It's a single diaphragm short length booster that will increase clearance to valve covers.

 

For power steering:  I am in the process of installing a Borgeson kit in my car.  I am at the stage of modifying the Z-bar for my manual trans clutch.  I did modify the power steering pump bracket, then paint the Saginaw pump they provide the original Ford color.  So far I am happy with it.  It is a nice clean install.  People complain about a lack of complete return to center.  I can say on the Borgeson steering box the worm bearing preload and sector shaft preload values are much higher than the original Ford steering box.  Which would explain that condition.  But, when I was a GM tech, every new car or truck that had a steering box had that same lack of return to center issue.  So, I'll live with it.  Classic Performance Parts also has a power steering box conversion.  I didn't go that route because they claim that often you need to modify the shock tower with a hammer so the box will fit.  Plus CPP has poor return policies, customer support, and from my conversations with them, they have literally little to no experience installing their kit in a 69 or 70 Mustang.

[prayers1 153]

GM Tech, Huh!  The majority of my youth, I was a GM man having a 1967 & 1969 RS Camaros both 350's, M21 and 12 bolt 4:11's, tons of fun and worry free!

 

My first car was a 69 Mach 1, Royal Maroon, 428 SCJ dragpak with a 3 speed slap stick (C6) and Detroit Locker 4:30, bought for $900 the Summer of my Junior in HS. 

The following Spring I totaled it. I never forgot about that car which is why I built this 69, it's not an original, it did come with a Windsor and I know that Cleveland's weren't used until 1970.  I tried to build it close to what the 1st looked like besides the side stripes and different color maroon.

 

Thanks for the picture Ray! I know that PS was used w/ Cleveland's but I didn't want to take too much vacuum from the motor and I needed to have enough elbow room.  Now 3rd time around (1st motor wild 289) I can install PB's. 

 

I have also thought about the Borgeson steering, at first I installed a rebuilt close ratio box thinking it shouldn't be a problem, but quickly found that it is very hard to steer in tight spaces especially at Car Shows, on highway driving it's ok.

 

I still need time to put a cost comparison on each and go from there. I guess I can try to sell the Cleveland long block?

 

I appreciate your comments and look forward to other opinions, Pro or Con, Thanks!

[ray1970 88]

If you want room to work I had a 6 cil in mine for two weeks in the 70s(got to get to work you know)

Not much power but plenty of room to work on it..

[ray1970 88]

My car was born with a 351W-2V..Had three of them.also a 289 a 302 a 240 six cil. and three 351C.

 

The way I see it is what ever you have laying around that moves you forward..

[ray1970 88]

On a more realistic view point...All you need to do is fix the head and maybe make a cam change.

This would take far less time and money and you already know how to put it back together.

I know you are a bit bored with this problem.. 

I will give you a thumbs up if you take the extra time to do the 408C (also think roller cam)

Swapping to a all new stile motor just seams like a lot of need less work and frustration.

[Black_69_FB 49]

I've been going through a bit of the C vs W debate myself, mainly due to thinking about a cam and/or head change, and whether I want to keep investing in Cleveland architecture or jump ship to the Windsor camp.

 

 

Pro's to swap:

351w is factory engine for a 69

more room to work between towers

more variety in aftermarket support

lighter (but not much)

transmission will still bolt up & work

better oiling from factory

more blocks available as buildable cores

 

 

Con's to swap:

already set up for 351c (peripherals add up fast)

custom torque converters aren't cheap (assuming a stroker, you'll need a different one)

down time (I've wasted too much time during the driving seasons over the years with the car torn apart for various projects)

I like the way the Cleveland looks better

everybody & their brother has a Windsor

 

 

I'll probably end up doing as Ray suggests... keep/fix what I have. I really want a hydro roller cam (because I have discovered that I despise adjusting valves), but there's really no point in pulling the solid flat out until I'm sure which direction I'm going. I can live with it another season. I'll have all winter to fantasize about building another engine.

 

Addressing some of the things you mentioned wanting to add:

 

If you want long tubes, look at FPA. That's what I run and they work with only a bit of light massaging on the driver's side.

 

I have factory power front disk brakes/booster, same flat-top style valve covers as the pic Ray posted, same clearance -- tight, but adequate. How often do you need to change plugs anyway?

 

I have factory power steering also. Drop bracket to clear headers. Rebuilt by Randy @ Stangers Site: http://www.stangerssite.com/   - no leaks going on, what, 5 years or so?

 

 

We all think about our cars, and what we could have done better, or would like to improve on. I ran across that 69 coupe a few weeks ago and was envious of all the space he had to work around that little 302 in his engine bay. A 302 Dart block & a stroker kit yields 363 cubic inches. Or maybe I should consider deleting the shock towers & drop a 460 stroker in... or a Coyote!... hmmm... if only I was made of money!

[ray1970 88]

In the Motorsports world I have adj.10.000 plus valves.. Its made me a living but its way over rated.

HYD Roller all the way..

The spark plugs will most likely outlast the motor if its a stroker (so i hear)

 

The 460 stroker could be fun....

[prayers1 153]

Here's the old 289 and the Cleveland, a little spoiled with all of the room the 289 gave.

[ray1970 88]

Micky Thompson valve covers... Nothing but the best for you I see..

[Rsanter 152]

Clevor
Bost of both worlds
Windsor stroker bottom with the cleaveland heads

Or can the whole works and install a coyote

Bob

[1969_Mach1 333]

I've liked the idea of a Clevor.  Prayers1, I've used that style of tall Ford Racing valve covers on a 351W.  It had less space than yours.  Those are terrible valve covers when it comes to space usage.  You have pedestal type rocker arms on that Cleveland motor, do you need tall valve covers?  I've had two sets of tall valve covers on mine, Ford Racing with the same design as yours and Ansen brand which used up less space than the Ford Racing covers. Now I switched to a Ford Racing standard eight cast aluminum valve covers.  My Scorpion stud mount roller rocker arms fit under the standard height valve covers.  Most of the time if there is any interference with short valve covers it's the poly lock nuts on the rocker arms contacting the baffles.  Simple baffle mods usually fix that.

[prayers1 153]

1969_Mach1- You posted 3:33am, your worse than me, always thinking about these darn cars!

 

I never really measured it, but I believed that the booster would touch or be very close to the VC's, also I went with a big bore Maverick Master Cyl and a rear proportionate valve thinking that would give me plenty of stopping power. For those thinking to use a Maverick MC, don't!

 

I first had a set of Alum. Mickey Thompson's, it had studs on the inside top for oil drippage. My Pedestal Scorpion 1.73 rocker arms knocked them off. I found that out when manually turning the crank to line up the flywheel to converter. Lucky for me it didn't happen under its own power. I tried a set of factory VC's and they would not bolt on.

Besides, I like the look of the Ford Racing.

 

I like to get a Borgenson PS unit, as for the Cleveland I'm not sure if there would be enough room with headers to run the pressure lines. What do you think?

 

I thought about this last night, how about a 408C with the same iron heads, It has news valves and springs and the builder is cleaning them up. All I would need to do is ground off the pedestals for screw in studs to fit a bigger cam. Or is it foolish to throw money in those heads and I should just buy a set of Alloy's?

 

I tend to want the best, then when it comes down to laying out some cash, I end up budgeting the project, then later I wish I did it another way.

[ray1970 88]

After my head guy gave me a price of 1400.00+ to fix my iron heads it was a no brainier on what to do.(they were BAD)

I dont see were your going to be anywhere near that.

Some of the new aluminum heads are nice.. 

[jholmes217 65]

Both a 351 Cleveland and a 351 Windsor leave entirely too much room in the engine compartment.  Put an FE in it and really fill it up!

[ray1970 88]

An FE is more like a motor on steroids.

I remember them well.....

[larryc94 38]

I have the Ford Motorsport valve covers and there no clearance problem with the stock booster

[1969_Mach1 333]

Valve covers like larryc94 have are shaped to utilize less space.  Would something like that fit?  Check Ansen's website, www.ansenusa.com.  Their valve covers of that design indicate they clear roller rocker arms but not stud girdles.  Actually, Ansen makes most of Ford Racing's valve covers.

 

As far as posting at 3.33 a.m.  I am on the West Coast and I work for a company that is on the East Coast.  Over the past 5 years my day and night hours have gotten messed up.

 

Borgeson now offers a universal hose kit that for cars with headers.  The hoses are longer so they loop up and over the headers instead of running between the stock exhaust manifold and left shock tower.  I don't know if they fit all applications.  I purchased that hose kit.  For mine, the pressure hose in that kit was a few inches too long for my liking so I had a local shop make a new pressure hose.

 

As far as your iron heads vs. new aluminum.  I would do some cost comparison.  At this point it would certainly be less expensive to use your iron heads.  I don't know how less hp there would be.  I use 1969 casting 351W iron heads.  In my case, even with installing larger valves, hardened exhaust seats, and screw in studs, it was less expensive than something like an AFR or Edelbrock head.  Plus I'm not racing the car so I'm trying to squeeze every last hp from the motor. 

[3pedal 95]

Give me your e-mail and I'll send you a video so you can see and hear what my new 408 ci, 4 bolt CJ Cleveland...all roller,custom Comp cam, Scat forged rotating system,Trick Flow heads ,850 Holley with Edelbrock air gap intake,Patriot long tubes and Flowmaster 44's sounds like...The Clevelands kick ass......This Cleveland runs so good you would bet it was an EFI motor...  

[ray1970 88]

The header on the LH side is realy not that tight..

Compared to my wife and the check book.

[Vicfreg 771]

For 1969_Mach 1..... I did the Borgeson swap. I had to add a few degrees of Caster to solve the centering problem. If you Borgeson they can help you out. I really like it. .

[1969_Mach1 333]

For 1969_Mach 1..... I did the Borgeson swap. I had to add a few degrees of Caster to solve the centering problem. If you Borgeson they can help you out. I really like it. .

I read about increasing caster on Borgeson's website. If it needs it, when I have it realigned I'll have the caster increased.  The conversion is not finished yet.  I am modifying the Z-bar and I need to replace the rim blow horn switch on my steering wheel before I reinstall it.  But the quality of the parts look good and so far everything fits like it should.

[RPM 1,190]

Heck, post it here 3pedal!

[MikeStang 247]

Lets Not forget that you have a much larger selection of Accessory brackets for the 351W over the Clevor.

You mentioned wanting to add Power Steering right?

its pretty easy to find a Serp set-up off of a Truck or van that had a 351W in it and you can run a newer stock style PS pump as well... Can also mix and match 302/351 Brackets.