302 to 390 swap

[blueblood 26]

1970 Sportsroof, currently 302W and C4

What would I need to bolt in a FE engine (390 in this case)?

Anyone gone down this road and regretted it?

 

I'm guessing a C6 might be required or is thereT5 conversion parts available?

[Caseyrhe 650]

small flexible hands, custom bent wrenches, and a swivel head ratchet for starters

[ray1970 88]

Unless you just have to have a big block it would be far simpler to put a stroked 351W in its place.

If I was going thru that much work and money and blood to install a BB I would use at least a 428..

 

More power..More smiles...

 

If you have a donor car GO for it.

[blueblood 26]

Unless you just have to have a big block it would be far simpler to put a stroked 351W in its place.

If I was going thru that much work and money and blood to install a BB I would use at least a 428..

 

More power..More smiles...

 

If you have a donor car GO for it.

I agree with the thinking Ray, just saw a recond 390 for a good price.

No donor car, just potentially an engine

[Brian Conway 264]

Yes the 390 and 428 blocks are the same size so...   Very little room left for the ' extras '.  Have you thought out the trans, diff. axle part ?  May require swapping those out as well.  A stroked small block may be a more affordable and less time consuming route ?  Brian 

[1969_Mach1 333]

390 is not a bad motor.  If I had a complete 390 waiting for a car to go into, I'd at least do the research.  There will be a lot of obstacles.  But the parts are plentiful.  In the end, I think you will fighting cooling issues when you do get it done.  Then wonder how to get to the rear spark on the drivers side.  Just not much room in that engine compartment.

 

For a manual trans, I don't think a T5 will hold up to a big block.  You are now looking at a TKO 500 or TKO 600 trans if you want a manual trans with overdrive.  The easiest route for a trans would be a C6 or a Ford Toploader 4 sp.

[Rsmach1 71]

small flexible hands, custom bent wrenches, and a swivel head ratchet for starters

lol, ain't that the truth.

[Rsmach1 71]

If wouldn't do a T5 with a big block, if you want a 5sp go with a TKO.

 

If your thinking of a big block FE for the cool factor, have at it. If you want HP do a stroked 351 Windsor.

[ray1970 88]

nothing to changing that rear plug.

 

1. Drink at least a bottol of 151 than stand back and look at it..

2.Pass out.

3. Wake up two days later and hope someone stole the car so you wont have to change the plug..

[Caseyrhe 650]

Come on now, the plugs aren't that bad, even when you have the power booster. The long swivel rachet is the key. The plug wires are harder than the plugs themselves. Header bolts are a different story though, thus the custom bent wrenches. 390/428, same block, same compression, it's all in the heads. The rocker arm shafts limit you on size of hyd cam, but doable going to solid/roller. Things you will need; battery,

Coil springs, hd tower supports, front end steering, sway bar, motor mnts and brackets, C6 tranny, tranny mnt, upgraded torque cont, d shaft, trans cooler, 9" rearend, posi is a must and the large 3 core radiator. The difference between a FE and Windsor is night and day, the sound, the torque, the power!! I noted a C6 due to less components and if your already running an auto, you can use the same shifter.

[afret 37]

I would just stick with a C4 if you want an auto trans.  That's what I use on my FE cars.  You can get the right bell housing from PA or QuickTime.

[1969_Mach1 333]

nothing to changing that rear plug.

 

1. Drink at least a bottol of 151 than stand back and look at it..

2.Pass out.

3. Wake up two days later and hope someone stole the car so you wont have to change the plug..

Good one.  I've heard, never seen it myself, but some people actually cut a hole in floor above the gas pedal area and reach through to get to the rear spark plug on the drivers side.

[Max Power 74]

The difference between a FE and Windsor is night and day, the sound, the torque, the power!! I noted a C6 due to less components and if your already running an auto, you can use the same shifter.

As a person who has owned many 390s, a modified 428CJ, as well as a 398 stroked Windsor, I am not sure I agree with this. Displacement is displacement, and as far as torque goes, stroke is stroke, where I have a hard time really noticing the difference. Stroke and aftermarket heads have effectively made Windsors big blocks. They don't look near as cool, but from a performance standpoint, I do not agree with "night and day" at all.

[SM69Mach 68]

I have to agree with Max on this one.  

 

The FE is a cool to have, but for the money and ease, Windsors are a great option and can be built for great power.  Only reason I went with a FE on my build cause my car was originally an S code car.  If it wasn't for that I would not have built my car with an FE.  Even a stroked 302 based motor makes good power and you don't have any of the other issues to deal with a Big Block conversion.  Personally i would spend the money on the best motor and tranny you can get and not have the additional expense of the big block conversion.   

[afret 37]

Good one.  I've heard, never seen it myself, but some people actually cut a hole in floor above the gas pedal area and reach through to get to the rear spark plug on the drivers side.

Can't figure out why people say it's hard to do plug changes on an FE.  Probably takes me 15 minutes if I'm not in a rush.  As mentioned before, the hardest part is putting the spark plug boots on especially if you have the big block shock tower braces.

[1969_Mach1 333]

I haven't been around stroked small block motors, but I am inclined to agree with Max as well.  If I had a choice, I'd go with a big block to get more cubic inches.  I also don't think "displacement is displacement".  In my mind I think other things come into play as well. For example, rod ratio's, and the rod angles it passes through as the crank rotates.  Theoretically, rod angles effect how much of the force applied to the crank by the rod is in a direction to rotate the crank, thus create torque.  I think that's one area where a big block has an advantage over a stroked small block.

[rwcstang 201]

I would prolly stick with your 302 and stroke it. if its the original motor, why not keep it? BB are massive and hard to work on, i haven't had the chance to work on a BB but ^ the guys here have..if you can put up with the headache and yelling out curse words once in a while then your good to go! lol 

[jholmes217 65]

I've had six classic Mustangs over the years, and my present car is the only big block car I've had.  Two of the small block cars were very strong (granted, these were before aluminum heads were readily available), and would scare most folks when I put my foot in it. 1st time I was scared was when I asked a guy I was riding with if his 428 Cobra Jet Mach 1 had any balls at a stop light!  I was pinned to the seat as he went through the gears when the light turned green, and he kept his $20 bill he put on the dash and said if I could grab it, I could have it.  I've wanted a 428 Mach 1 ever since.

 

Spark plugs aren't that hard if you take off the valve covers.  When I put new plugs in, I put a piece of vacuum hose on the tip and lower it into the hole and twist the hose until the threads get started, then put the spark plug socket on (yes, with a swivel adapter,) and tight it down.  I have a special pair of spark plug wire pliers that make getting the plug wires "snapped in" much easier.

 

If you go with aluminum heads, aluminum intake manifold, aluminum water pump, and headers, you are in small block weight range.  Headers aren't that bad either if you install the engine with them already on.  If you need to get them off or put some on with the engine already in, then take out the motor mount bolts and jack up the engine a few inches, one side at a time to "tilt" the engine sideways so you can get to the bolts better.

 

For cooling, I blocked of the heat crossover in the heads, used a Edelbrock aluminum water pump, used a factory clutch fan, and an aluminum 2 core radiator.  Temps stay in the safe area for me, but it doesn't get that hot and humid in the Seattle/Olympia area.

 

If you want a couple of good books on FE engines, these two books should be in every performance FE guys library;

http://fepower.net/GFEIC.html

https://www.amazon.com/Build-Max-Performance-Ford-Engines-Performance/dp/1934709158

 

Here are two good forums for FE engines also;

http://www.network54.com/Forum/74182

http://fepower.net/simplemachinesforum/index.php

 

FE engines are different, but not impossible.  352 and 390 parts are the cheapest, and a 390 can be stroked pretty easily to 445 cubic inches with a SCAT stroker kit.  Casting numbers don't mean much other than they can tell you what the engine is not.  The Survival book talks about that pretty good.  End the end, it's your car, so do what will make you happy.  I can say the FE seems to get more "Wow" comments at car shows.

[barnett468 418]

have fun putting the exhaust manifolds or headers on.

.

[ray1970 88]

On my 500KR I remember pulling the heads to install the headers ..

GOOD times.....

Wish I had never seen a set of headers for a BB....EVER!!!

After my share of EX gasket leaks and super hot floorboards I flushed those things and went back to cast iron..  

[Max Power 74]

I haven't been around stroked small block motors, but I am inclined to agree with Max as well.  If I had a choice, I'd go with a big block to get more cubic inches.  I also don't think "displacement is displacement".  In my mind I think other things come into play as well. For example, rod ratio's, and the rod angles it passes through as the crank rotates.  Theoretically, rod angles effect how much of the force applied to the crank by the rod is in a direction to rotate the crank, thus create torque.  I think that's one area where a big block has an advantage over a stroked small block.

I am not sure how much difference it really makes, at the end of the day. The stock stroke on a 428 is 3.98 inches. The stroke on the most common stroker kit, the 408, is 4.0 inches. I am not sure what the rod ratio is for each, but I have seen dyno tests of 408 that have over 500 ft lbs of torque from 3000 rpm through 6000 rpm easily and inexpensively. I have seen many of Rabotnick's tests, as I am his publisher, and he does a lot of engines for Engine Master's challenges. He is the best out there building these things, but FEs have their limitations. They don't make power quite like BBCs or Hemi's. To get more power out of an FE to match the 408 and 427 stroked Windsors, you have to stroke the FEs and that gets expensive.

 

Of course, the FEs have the wow factor under the hood, because they are bigger and rarer than the every day Windsor. I love them. The car I miss the most is my old Acapulco Blue 428cj Mach Q code car. But the only way I would run an FE today is if it was stock in a matching chassis. I think those headers have scarred me for life.

[afret 37]

I don't have much problem with headers on a FE Mustang especially the ones with separate tubes like REF.  The one piece street headers like FPA are more of a pain since you have to undo the two motor mount bolts and the idler arm and jack the engine up but it's still no big deal.  When I used to run the Hooker street headers,  I cut the flanges apart to separate the tubes and used slip on collectors which made it easy to take off and put back on. I guess if you're not used to working on an FE in a Mustang it can seem kind of difficult.

 

You can see the REF headers on my old 428 stocker.  You just have to pull the collectors off and unbolt each tube separately and pull them out from below:

 

[Caseyrhe 650]

The joys of having a big block, headers, plug wires, that light intake manifold, cost of rear tires, and so many more......gotta say changing the water pump is so much easier then a small block along with the 4 bolts on the rocker shafts. It's all how you address it, and come on man, ain't it just so cool!!!

[Vicfreg 771]

I have had a "S" code (390) car and although it was cool as it was original, I would keep the small block.  The 390 is a boat anchor.   If you want cubic inches, get a 351W based stroker.

 

Or keep the 302. I have one in my 1968 and love it.

[afret 37]

Yeah, if you leave a 390 bone stock it will probably be slow with the stock cork of an intake and exhaust manifolds and it will be better to just stick with the small block.  If would be easier and most likely cheaper to stay with the small block with all of the available performance parts.

 

If you plan on doing a few mods on a 390 like a better intake manifold and headers, the engine will really wake up.  Unlike several years ago, there is a lot more aftermarket support for the FE but unfortunately,  the cost will likely be more than that of staying with the small block.    

 

Here's a stock eliminator 390 Fairlane using an aluminum PI intake, .481/.490 lift hydraulic flat tappet cam, 735 Holley, headers, unported heads, and a lot of careful machining and assembly.  The car runs easy 10 second 1/4 mile times.  Pretty good for boat anchor power.