Another Ignition Problem

[albarnett_99 13]

I have been chasing a no start problem for the past few months and have had no success ('69 Mach 1, A/T, RobbMc starter, Mallory distributor and coil, no tach).  When I turn the key to start, the solenoid gives out a loud click.  I started out by bypassing the Pink resistance wire from the ignition switch.  I installed a new ignition switch, zip tied the pink wire, cut the original pink wire).  I originally installed a new wire from the ignition switch (cannot recall which wire in ignition switch pigtail I tapped) and ran it straight to the coil.

 

Car started and ran fine for a day.  The next day it would not start and hasn't since.  Since then, with the help of individuals on this site, I retracted my new wire to the coil and spliced it into the brown wire behind the firewall.  I leveraged the factory harness to connect to the coil.  Car still wont start and solenoid clicks.  

 

I suspect the issue here is the starter.  I shipped it back to the manufacturer and he tested it.  He installed a new solenoid.  Since I installed the refurbished starter, it has not started.  

 

This weekend I scoured the various forums and wrote down all the suggested tests and results.  Here is what I found:

 

1. Cleaned all battery posts, cables, grounds, etc. (no paint, no rust, replaced a starter cable from solenoid to starter, checked condition of all cables)(I have a ground strap from firewall to motor, battery to motor, etc)

 

2. Tested remote solenoid on car

- Solenoid ground to "S" post (3.8 ohms)

- Ground to large left post on solenoid (12.19 volts)

- Ground to "S" post (10.43 volts)

- Ground to "I" post (12.19 volts)

- Battery to large left post and right post (both 12.19 volts)

 

3.  Tested voltage at coil

- 11.38 volts at positive terminal of coil

 

4.  Ran a wire from + battery terminal to + on coil (loud click at solenoid, no start)

 

5.  Removed post on "S" terminal and checked with test light (test light illuminates)

 

6.  Jumped large post on left side of remote solenoid to "S" post (loud click, no start)

 

7.  Ran a wire from battery + terminal to starter terminal on remote solenoid (loud click, no start)

- Transmission in neutral 

 

8.  Tried moving shifter between gears and back to park (loud click, no start)

 

9.  Bypassed NSS (loud click, no start)

 

Not really sure where to go from here.  Are there any other tests that I can perform?  I would appreciate any other ideas and guidance here.

[ray1970 88]

You say the car wont start... do you really mean it wont turn over?

Or it turns over but wont start?

[ray1970 88]

If it clicks but wont spin over most of the time it is a dead battery or a bad starter

There was the time i had a bolt back out from my flywheel and jam the motor up.(two hours from home)

[albarnett_99 13]

Car will not turn over. Starter does nothing.

[Midlife 814]

Can you turn the engine over by hand with the damper bolt?  If the engine is jammed or hydrolocked, you'll get the symptoms you've described.  Normally, however, the indications are a low battery or a bad starter.  Have you changed the starter cable with a new one yet?

 

Solenoid ground to S post should be in the kilo-ohms or mega-ohms range with key in OFF position.  If you're measuring it with the starter engaged, you're reading the starter resistance.

 

Remove the starter and run a ground wire from the casing to the negative battery post.  With the starter wire still attached and the starter out of the engine, does it throw out the gear and turn over?

[albarnett_99 13]

Yes I can turn motor over by hand. I replaced the cable from the solenoid to starter this weekend. Will need to try the items you discussed and report back.

 

Thanks!

[Mach1 Driver 560]

albarnett,

1. It appears you installed an aftermarket mini-starter that has special circuit requirements- a RobbMc, is that correct?

2. When you say it "doesn't start" you mean the starter doesn't spin- correct?

3. If that is the case lets tackle this one system at a time, beginning with the starter.

4. Have you ever run the starter out of the car- just laying on the ground, to see if it spins? Its very easy to do but you must be careful. 

5. You don't want sparks at the battery, because it can develop explosive gasses. Lay the starter on the ground and connect a 10ga wire from B to S. Connect a battery jumper cable from chassis to the body of the starter. Now be careful, because as soon as you connect the other battery jumper cable to battery positive and then touch it to the B terminal the motor should spin and torque away from you. DON'T SHORT ANYTHING OUT. Only apply the power for a moment to see if the motor operates. 

6. If it spins out of the car we should be able to get it to spin in the car. However, you've made so many changes that I can't follow everything you've done, and I can't tell what state the car's electrical system is currently in. I can say that some of your results indicate the car is miss-wired and if I were you I would return it to stock condition so we can go through it a circuit at a time and fix any additional problems.

7. Attached is a Word file that shows schematically the stock circuit, the RobbMc circuit and the stock wire diagram. 

 

robbMc starter.doc

[Mach1 Driver 560]

try this download if the others don't work

robbMc starter.doc

[albarnett_99 13]

Mach1driver,

 

Thanks for your feedback. Yes, the starter will not engage and the car will not crank. I simply get a loud click from the solenoid.

 

No. I have not run the starter outside of the car. That will be something I will do this week.

 

There are 2 changes from stock. The first is the removal of the Pink resistance wire and the substitution of a new wire from the ignition switch pigtail to the brown wire before the firewall. The second is the substitution of points with an electronic ignition. It's my understanding that the Pink wire is no longer needed since the points have been replaced by the electronic ignition.

 

Can you share more regarding your thoughts that the test results indicate the car is presently miswired?

[Mach1 Driver 560]

A. Ok, you shorted the resistor wire so you probably have a Pertronix ignition module- is it a 1, 2, or 3? Is it installed?

B. Tripple check that you have the circuit exactly as shown in my attachment. RobbMc gave you a diode that must be put in the circuit in the direction shown. If you reverse the diode the solenoid on the starter will stay on. I think that is what may have happened. Check to make sure the diode is working- use an ohmmeter to get continuity one direction, but not in the other. Put the diode next to the stock solenoid where it is relatively cool- depending on the grade component it will reach its temperature max at 105C or 125C, that's 221F or 257F. Its unlikely it is rated higher.

 

Can you share more regarding your thoughts that the test results indicate the car is presently miswired?

C. I have several questions regarding your test results:

 

2. Tested remote solenoid on car

- Ground to large left post on solenoid (12.19 volts) yes, battery voltage

- Ground to "S" post (10.43 volts) Not unless the key is "on", and it should be around 12.19 judging from your battery voltage

- Ground to "I" post (12.19 volts) Not unless the key is "on"

 

4.  Ran a wire from + battery terminal to + on coil (loud click at solenoid, no start) this is really really wrong- describe the exact conditions. Is the stock solenoid clicking or the RobbMc?

 

7.  Ran a wire from battery + terminal to starter terminal on remote solenoid (loud click, no start)

- Transmission in neutral  what is the remote solenoid- the RobbMc starter solenoid or the stock solenoid in the car? Which clicked?

 

D. New attachment for your conditions

robbMc starter.doc

[albarnett_99 13]

Midline and Mach 1 Driver,

 

Tonight I validated that my RobbMc starter was installed per the Gen II instructions.  I also tested the starter.  It rotated as expected and the pinion moved outwards. 

 

Here are answers to Mach 1 Driver's questions and comments in the prior post:

 

- Ground to "S" post reading is 12.19 volts in Off position, 10.36 volts in Start/Crank position, and 0 volts in Run/On

- Ground to "I" post was 0 in Off position, 12.04 volts in Start/Crank, and 0.01 volts in Run/On position

- When I ran the wire from the + battery terminal to the + post on coil, the remote solenoid on the fender apron clicked; not the RobbMc solenoid

- When I ran a wire from the + battery terminal to the remote solenoid on the fender apron, there was a loud click; not the RobbMc solenoid

 

Can you share a little more detail on how to test the diode?  Appreciate all your help.

[Midlife 814]

Voltage readings are correct.  The click you hear when you connect the + side of the coil to the + battery terminal is strange.  However, it feeds back to the starter solenoid via the I switch.  Do you have your I and S wires reversed?

[prayers1 153]

I had a similar problem, I have a ProMaster mini toque starter that also has the solenoid mounted to it and I still use the solenoid on the fender apron. NOTE, that  I do have the one wire alternator.  I'm assuming you have the same setup, a solenoid on the starter and fender apron.

 

So this may sound basic, but did you try starting the the car by touching the fender solenoid with a screwdriver? 

 

Mine made the same loud clicking noise so I replaced the fender solenoid, still the same problem.  Eventually I found that the rivet that attaches the terminal for the starter wire on the starter was ever so slightly loose. If I wedged in a screw between the rivet and solenoid body it would start.  I had a local shop replace the starter solenoid.

 

Also, could it be possible that the starter is binding and it needs to be shimmed?

[Mach1 Driver 560]

Midline and Mach 1 Driver,

 

- Ground to "S" post reading is 12.19 volts in Off position, 10.36 volts in Start/Crank position, and 0 volts in Run/On

Lets be clear here- you connected the voltmeter to chassis and "S" with the ignition OFF, trans in PARK and got 12.19 volts? And everything is connected? Under those conditions it should be ZERO.

10.36v is low but OK in START. In Run it should be zero

 

- Ground to "I" post was 0 in Off position, 12.04 volts in Start/Crank, and 0.01 volts in Run/On position That's good

 

- When I ran the wire from the + battery terminal to the + post on coil, the remote solenoid on the fender apron clicked; not the RobbMc solenoid. The Key is OFF and transmission in PARK? Is the RobbMc diode in the circuit? The only path to the stock solenoid coil is from ignition switch C to S (which should be open in OFF). I don't see how this can occur without some sort of misswire or a bad ignition switch

 

- When I ran a wire from the + battery terminal to the remote solenoid on the fender apron, there was a loud click; not the RobbMc solenoid If you connected to the S terminal that is correct

 

Can you share a little more detail on how to test the diode?  Appreciate all your help. The diode is a one way electrical valve which allows current flow in only one direction. Setup your ohmmeter dial to around 2K. Connect the black lead to negative and the red lead to Ohms. With the black lead connected to the banded side of the diode you should get a low resistance- typically something under one ohm. Reverse the leads with the red lead on the banded side and you should get a very high number- my meter shows infinity as a 1. You have to do this with nothing connected to the diode or it could back-feed and give an bad reading.

The diode is in the circuit so that when the ignition is ON it doesn't allow the RobbMc solenoid to be energized- it should only be on when the key is in START. If the diode is reversed or blown it will have the opposite affect. If you get a low reading in both directions on the diode it is blow and needs to be replaced.

 

I'm going to have to beg-off this conversation from the next couple of weeks- I'm sorry but we flew our grand kids in for a visit and we need to keep them entertained. I'll check back after their departure to see how you faired. Good luck in the mean time.

[albarnett_99 13]

Midlife - I have validated that the brown wire is attached to the "I" terminal. The "S" terminal has the red/blue wire. Also, I tried attaching a wire between the + battery post and + post on coil again. When I turned key to start, the remote solenoid on the fender apron clicked.

 

Prayers1 - I pulled the starter and checked all terminals on the starter for anything loose. Also scraped off the paint where the starter mates to the block. Shimmed the starter and installed again. Also made sure the remote solenoid was secured tightly to fender apron. Again I get a loud click from the remote solenoid on the fender apron. Next I bypassed the neutral safety switch and tried to start again. Same loud click noise.

 

Also tried to jumper large left post on solenoid to "S" post while turning key to start. Got a loud click from the remote solenoid on the fender apron.

 

Mach1 Driver - gave you incorrect information in my last post. My test of the remote solenoid involved touching the top of the solenoid with the black probe and the "S" post with the red probe. Ignition was off and trans in Park. I got 0 volts, not 12.19 volts.

 

As previously mentioned, when I ran a wire between + battery post and + coil post and turned key to start, I heard a loud click from the solenoid on the fender apron. There was no noise when key was in Off position.

 

I checked diode for proper installation. All is good there. Will replace it tomorrow and test again. Will probably check all crimps and wiring on the ignition switch pigtail next unless anyone else has any other ideas on what to do next.

[1969_Mach1 333]

Seems to be over complicated.  The PM starters Ford Racing offers come with the necessary wiring harness and installation is simple.  The instructions show a different style fender mount solenoid but the procedure is the same.  If your starter has a solenoid attached to it the wiring should be the same as shown in the Ford Racing instructions.  https://static.summitracing.com/global/images/instructions/FMS-FordInstShtM-11000-B51-MT164.pdf

 

 

Ford Racing starters:  https://www.summitracing.com/search/brand/ford-performance-parts/product-line/ford-racing-starters?autoview=SKU&ibanner=SREPD5

[Mach1 Driver 560]

I'm back from our trip to Washington DC with the grand kids and it would appear from the lack of posts that you haven't fixed the problem yet?? If you still have the problem lets continue with our discussion:

 

1. Lets forget about the engine actually running at this point and just concentrate on getting the starter to spin. I believe you said you installed a Mallory distributor; knowing the model number would help. 

2. You shorted the resistor wire?? I can't be certain until I know what the distributor is but I believe the use of the diode is redundant and it can be completely eliminated and not affect the circuit. The line that goes from the fender apron solenoid "I" to  the coil "bat" terminal (through the diode) is there to apply 12 volts to the coil when cranking the starter. If you shorted the resistor wire you have already done that... you have applied 12 volts to the coil at all times that the key is in "start or run".

3. We just want the starter to spin at this point, so remove the diode  and any connection from the apron solenoid to the coil and do the following:

 a. In Park, key to start. The fender apron solenoid should click and the starter should spin.

 b. If it doesn't click it could be several things- (1) the ignition switch from B to S is open, (2) the neutral safety switch is open, (3) the coil internal to the apron solenoid (S) is open, or (4) the wire connecting all that is open someplace.

 c. If it does click but the starter doesn't spin do you get 12v from the apron solenoid "I" to chassis? Do you get 12v from the large bolt on the right side of the apron solenoid to chassis? 

[albarnett_99 13]

Mallory S/S 42 series distributor. I removed the starter and tested, all worked fine. Ended up removing the diode per RobbMc's instructions and tried starting with same results (loud click from solenoid on fender apron). Starter would not spin when car was in park or neutral. Repeated everything with a new fender apron solenoid and with neutral safety switch bypassed. Same results.

 

Long story short, I decided to order an under dash harness and headlight harness from Midlife. Today the car was put on a flatbed and sent to a local Mustang shop to install the harnesses and perform further tests. I will post any news I learn from the local shop for future reference.

 

Thanks for everyone's input. A special thanks to Midlife for responding to my countless emails and questions outside this thread.

[Midlife 814]

I hope everything goes easily and well!

[1969_Mach1 333]

After all these posts, still cannot determine if the starter was wired correctly.  The + bat cable to the new PM starter needs to be attached to the same post on the fender mounted solenoid as the + bat cable from the battery.  Thus, connected directly to the + side of the battery.  The wire to the S terminal on the PM starter's solenoid (the one mounted on the PM starter) connects to the large post on the fender mounted solenoid that the +bat cable to the original OEM starter was attached to.  This eliminates the 0.3V voltage drop that occurs in the fender mounted solenoid.  Also, battery open circuit voltage on a good battery is at or close to 12.6V.  Does the battery have a shorted or bad cell?  I think 12.19V is the highest measured voltage I have seen in the posts.  PM starters are not very forgiving to a marginal battery.  Instead of cranking slow or trying to crank with a low or marginal battery, they simply do not crank at all.

 

I apologize for sounding too abrupt.  Solution seems to be getting over complicated.

[Mach1 Driver 560]

Not to beat a dead horse here (sorry for the pun) but 1969_Mach1 is correct that the solution is getting over complicated. This is a really simple circuit. Goodness knows that our 46 year old cars could all benefit from new harnesses, but IMHO that will not correct your starter problem.

From the model number I can now tell that you have a Mallory distributor that uses a magnetic pickup and a separate electronic module. That changes what your ignition system needs, but it doesn't have anything to do with the starter.

 

The starter spins outside the car, and you removed the diode so now the ignition system should be completely separate from the starting system. The apron solenoid is new and clicking when the key is in start. There should be only two wires going from the RobbMc starter to the apron solenoid, according to their instructions. One cable from starter B to the apron solenoid's large right bolt, and a wire from the starter S to the apron solenoid "I" terminal- and that's all. With the key in start, there should be around 12v from the starter S terminal to chassis and 12v from the starter B terminal to chassis. If you get that and the starter doesn't spin, then there can only be three problems: 1) the battery voltage is low as 1969_Mach1 mentions in the post above, 2) the engine ground wire is faulty, or 3) the problem is not electrical, but mechanical- something is preventing the starter from turning. 

 

Good luck and I look forward to seeing your results.

[albarnett_99 13]

Starter was wired per RobbMc instructions. I tried both wiring options he suggested and got the same results. Not sure about the battery.

[1969_Mach1 333]

Many, many years ago in GM training, the first thing stressed over and over again for a no crank condition is test the battery.

[Brian Conway 264]

No help here and don't know anything about the starter your using.  Cant get pass hooking the battery+ cable and the stater cable to the same post on the fender stater solenoid.  Can't understand how that would work ?  Without reading this entire post have you tried to hook everything up ' traditionally' ?  Brian