69 Mach 1 "M" code - rebuild the 351c or go back to 351w

[Sean D 31]

Hello Everyone - this question probably comes up often, but I am having a hard time deciding. I have a 69 mach 1 "M" code car that no longer has its original 351w with FMX in it. It currently has a 70 351c with c6 in it (completely stock). I am wondering if I should go back to the 351w or rebuild the 351c. Since it will not have the original engine either way, it probably does not matter.  I would like to run around 400 to 450 hp and not looking to keep it completely stock, but not to radical.  I read that parts are easier to find for the windsor than for the cleveland, and assume either way I go the cost will be about the same. I will probably get the transmission rebuilt as the c6 is not too bad. Any and all advice is welcome.

 

Also any ideas on good engine re-builders in north Alabama?

[1969_Mach1 333]

Yes, there are more parts available for the 351W.  And 400 hp is easy with a 351W.  I think both motors have advantages and disadvantages.  But from what I have seen, dollar for dollar, the Windsor will make more power.  Most that don't have experience with a 351W are not aware of its potential.  But ultimately, I think it comes down to how much of a purist you are.  I can only speak for myself, I am more of a purist.  In my 69 Mach 1 I have a 351W even though it's not the original motor.  But it is at least a 1969 motor.  If I had a 70 Mach 1 I wouldn't hesitate with a Cleveland.

[RogerC 136]

If you're interested in keeping the cleveland I suggest the 351C.Net - http://351c.net/board/ and pantera forums - http://pantera.infopop.cc/eve/forums

Personally, I'd pick the C over a W any day. Clevelands are potent engines stock, make more torque bone stock than a stock windsor. There are some nuances with the engine that scares people away from running them but read what the pantera guys do, they run reliable powerful engines and don't have to spend a fortune to do it.

[Max Power 74]

If the engine is going to be modified anyway, from an originality standpoint, you aren't going to be there anyway. Since you already have the Cleveland, I would just use that. They are fun engines. The reason the Cleveland has more of a performance motor reputation is because the factory heads were so much better than the Windsors. Now that the aftermarket is flooded with heads for both platforms, you can build whatever you like and achieve your goals.

 

Most parts are similarly priced, but heads for Clevelands are a bit pricier than Windsors. That's where the main difference is.

 

If you choose to keep the Cleveland, buy this book: http://www.amazon.com/Ford-351-Cleveland-Engines-Performance/dp/1613250487/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1464370861&sr=1-1&keywords=ford+cleveland+engines

 

There is good info on head selection and oiling system modifications you may want to do, as well as a good source guide.

[barnett468 418]

if you use stock heads, build the cleveland . if you don't, it doesn't matter much other than the windsor has a taller deck so you can stroke it father or have a slightly better rod ratio than the clevo with the same stroke . i can tell you how to build a monster clevo and i can tell you all the "secret" oil mods to do if you want to do them and im sure others here can also, so although the 351c forum is  great for clevos, they dont really know anything more than some others here do, they simply have more people that know the same things because it is for clevelands only.

 

some very knowledgeable people over there are dan jones, george pence and tim meyer, and tim meyer has a shop and you can call him if you want . he is also having an aluminum block made from a mold he got from another guy if you are interested but it will be pricey.

 

i certainly encourage you to check other places and get all the info you can, but i hate to see new people come here to a mustang forum then be told to go to another forum, because this implies that we don't know anything here and can cause people not to come back . this being said, the 351c forum is a very good forum imo also.

[RogerC 136]

some very knowledgeable people over there are dan jones, george pence and tim meyer, and tim meyer has a shop and you can call him if you want . he is also having an aluminum block made from a mold he got from another guy if you are interested but it will be pricey.

 

+1

 

i certainly encourage you to check other places and get all the info you can, but i hate to see new people come here to a mustang forum then be told to go to another forum, because this implies that we don't know anything here and can cause people not to come back . this being said, the 351c forum is a very good forum imo also.

 

I only linked there because, and speaking more towards the pantera forum, the information is pretty much condensed in stickys and readily accessible without reading through the whole forum trying to piece it all together. Dan,George & Tim have done a pretty good job putting it all together. I probably could have pointed that out earlier.

[Black_69_FB 49]

Hello Everyone - this question probably comes up often, but I am having a hard time deciding. I have a 69 mach 1 "M" code car that no longer has its original 351w with FMX in it. It currently has a 70 351c with c6 in it (completely stock). I am wondering if I should go back to the 351w or rebuild the 351c. Since it will not have the original engine either way, it probably does not matter.  I would like to run around 400 to 450 hp and not looking to keep it completely stock, but not to radical.  I read that parts are easier to find for the windsor than for the cleveland, and assume either way I go the cost will be about the same. I will probably get the transmission rebuilt as the c6 is not too bad. Any and all advice is welcome.

 

Also any ideas on good engine re-builders in north Alabama?

 

If you do run the 351c the #1 piece of advice I could give you is ditch the stock valves and go with one-piece units. You may never have a problem with the stock valves but I've heard too many horror stories about the heads popping off and trashing the engine. Also, make sure to have the block sonic checked to determine if it's safe to overbore.

[ray1970 88]

Im a 408 Cleveland guy.(Car came with a 351W 8 motors ago)

If i didn't already have the 351C motor I could have done a 351W as well for most likely less money.

Building a Cleveland you have to think a little more but it has a way bigger cool factor.

[1969_Mach1 333]

When I was younger I used to think Clevelands were cool (or however you want to say it).  Now, not so much.  Probably doesn't help that I use to work with a guy that bracket raced a Fairlane with a 351C.  Something in the valvetrain broke almost every weekend it was raced.  It sounded great, just broke a lot.  These days three are probably better valve train components.

[Convertible69 17]

Sean,

I'm glad you started this post. I also have a Cleveland & have been debating the same thing. Keep the Cleveland, switch to a Windsor, or Stroke out the Cleveland to reach the 400-425 HP range? I'll check out the 351c site....lots of good info here!!

[RogerC 136]

I built the cleveland in my car back in 84. Since then I've found some things I did wrong and some things I could have done better. The car had a 351W in it when I bought it and I replaced it with the 351C. I have no regrets going with the C. With what the OP already has in the car he can have a reliable engine without going through piecing together a formidable 351W. Just read up on it and get a better understanding of the design and the differences from other small block engines and you should have no problem. I will be going through mine in the not-to-distant future, buying some parts for it now.

[Wycked69 20]

Who doesn't love the 351C. Its a fun motor to work with and you can make some wicked power with just stock parts. I actually have 4 or 5 351C tucked away in my garage.

I'm finishing up a 408C that Tim Meyer helped me with. I used his stroker kit along with a BT intake, roller cam, and a set of CHI heads. I cant wait to get it finished and drop down in my 68FB to see how she puts around.

 

I love to play with motors. I really want to build a 351 Hemi some day. For no other reason than "just because". If you look at my avatar, its a 351 Hemi built by Nick Arias jr.

[RPM 1,190]

Hey Sean, welcome to the forum. Even though I have a 69 M Code with a 351W, if you have a Cleveland already in it, I'd use that and build all the power you want. Nice Mustang, any chance we can see more pics of it.

[Rsanter 152]

Are you sure that 351c is not correct to the car?

I say because at the very end of the year in 69 that started installing the 351c engines due to a lack of 351w engines.

If the car is a very late 69 car it could be the correct engine in there.

 

If it was me I think I would pull the engine and inspect/measure it. If it is standard I would consider doing a stroker in that exsisting engine and do it up

 

Bob

[barnett468 418]

69 never had a cleveland . some of the very early 70 cars had windsors.

[Max Power 74]

69 never had a cleveland . some of the very early 70 cars had windsors.

Exactly. I am getting pretty sick of that internet wives tale. The 70 model 2v cars were Windsors halfway into the production year. I have yet to see a documented case of a factory 69 Cleveland car. They didn't run out of windsors, they had too many.

[Sean D 31]

My 69 is an early year production car. It came with a Windsor, but has a 70 Cleveland now. Seems like the opinions are mixed between swap to the original Windsor and build the existing Cleveland. 

[Sean D 31]

Hey Sean, welcome to the forum. Even though I have a 69 M Code with a 351W, if you have a Cleveland already in it, I'd use that and build all the power you want. Nice Mustang, any chance we can see more pics of it.

Here you go!

[Rsmach1 71]

Nice looking car.

[Max Power 74]

If I am not mistaken, that color is not original either, so put a Kaase Boss 429 in it!

[Black_69_FB 49]

Here you go!

IMG_0134.JPGIMG_0139.JPG20151220_112946.jpg20151220_112931.jpg

 

Hey, that's different, I like it.

 

 

If I am not mistaken, that color is not original either, so put a Kaase Boss 429 in it!

 

Have I seen that color somewhere before?...

 

 

 

[Max Power 74]

Hey, that's different, I like it.

 

 

 

Have I seen that color somewhere before?...

 

 

 

 

It kinda looks like the Bright Gold Metallic that was used on 70 models, and probably should have been used in 69 models, judging how long Champagne Gold lasted. Hard to tell with golds and pictures on the internet, my Champagne ranges from almost silver to a bolder gold, depending on the light. I like it too.

[Guillaume69 150]

That's a very nice combo you have in your garage: I have exactly the same. Lol

[Sean D 31]

If I am not mistaken, that color is not original either, so put a Kaase Boss 429 in it!

Correct, the gold color is not original as it is an Indian Fire Red car, and I have NO idea what this specific gold color came from or why someone had changed it. Most likely, it will go back to Indian Fire Red though. 

[Max Power 74]

Correct, the gold color is not original as it is an Indian Fire Red car, and I have NO idea what this specific gold color came from or why someone had changed it. Most likely, it will go back to Indian Fire Red though. 

I used to have an Indian Fire Red 69 coupe and I loved that color. I like it less on Mach Is because the black graphics really didn't contrast that well. Many of the IFR cars had white guts, which is an interesting combo. I guess if I were you I wouldn't be in any sort of rush, the car looks great now.