EFI install options

[Mach1 Driver 560]

All the leaks u speak off can be fixed with out draining the tank, if you fill it full, for gas to come up the neck the most that would leak out is  maybe a quart. All the connections that could leak are either clamps or thick rubber gaskets that would require tighten  screws  why would you run the risk to pressurize the tank. I don't get it.

 

Dave

I see your point. A quart of leaked fuel in the trunk can be dealt with if you are careful. You would have to top-off the tank at home and be prepared for leaks.

I found these suggestions in a web search:

 

Re: how to test tank for leaks?

Wrap all the openings in the tank with electrical tape (or something else) except for two small ones. Then you put a balloon onto one of the ends. Use tape on that one too. In the last hole you put the air gun from your compressor. Now you fill air in the tank till the balloon rises, then you have enough air to spray on some dish washing soap and water on the outside. If it leaks you will find the bubbles.

The reason for the balloon is that you don't want too much air in the tank. If there's too much pressure in the leaks, there will be no bubbles, the soap just blows off.

The other reason is too much pressure in the tank can destroy it (rip it, deform it).

This way you also check that you have enough air to do a good test. If the balloon doesn't fill, you need more air in the tank.

Air will come thru where diesel, water, gasoline won't, especially when you have a little positive pressure behind it. You just have to be careful enough, and diligent enough, with the soapy water spray.

 

Re: how to test tank for leaks?

This is what I use when pressurizing a tank, plenty of reducers so I can fit it into anything, seal and cap off the tank, low pressure gauge lets me know immediately when I have pressure. Depending on the type of tank and the size, 2 psi is generally enough. No way, no how, will I pressurize a tank, without a correct gauge on it.

As usual I can't post pictures on this site- it showed a 0-30 psi gauge with a bunch of pipe reducers connected to it. I doubt that a 30 psi gauge is very accurate at the low end of the scale.

 

Edit 1:21 2/24

The balloon example sounded pretty good so I Googled how much pressure it takes to blow-up a balloon and found it was 810mm Hg for a laytex balloon, which converts to 15 psi. That's way more than you want to subject a tank to. A good way to measure low pressures like this is with a manometer. There is a unit of measure known as "inches of water column". You measure it with a clear flexible plastic tube bent in a "U" that is filled with water and a scale behind it measuring inches. With no pressure the water will level out with both sides even. Make that zero and measure up and down from there. When you apply pressure the side with the pressure will go down and the other side up. If one side measures 13 7/8" then you double that = 27 3/4". Google "convert in water to psi" and you'll see it equals about 1 psi. The manometers I've used have 5/16" OD tube. If you buy one of these things they are ridiculously expensive but they are very easy to make. There is nothing to calibrate since all you have is water and a tape measure. Ok it should probably be distilled water but it won't matter for our purposes.

[prayers1 153]

I have a question for all you pipe conversion folks.

 

The Tanks Inc pump has 1/4 npt supply and return, I need a 1/2 or an8 Supply and Return lines for the Carburetor

 

Will I lose pressure if I use an adapter,1/4 npt male to a an6, then a an6 to an8?

 

The Aeromotive pumps no not have the 1/4 npt but a have an6 on S & R, they suggest to use union #15649 an-6 Port / an-8 Flare (it has a true an8 bore).

 

My concern is, will there be a pressure loss coming out of a 1/4 npt.  I'm using Aeromotive By-Pass Regulator 13204

Thanks!

[det0326 179]

John 

 

why do you need a 1/2" or  8AN fuel delivery to a carburetor did someone recommend this? With an electric fuel pump I would have thought the only thing to worry about is pressure.  This thread has got so long maybe I missed something.

 

Dave

[Mach1 Driver 560]

I have a question for all you pipe conversion folks.

 

The Tanks Inc pump has 1/4 npt supply and return, I need a 1/2 or an8 Supply and Return lines for the Carburetor

 

Will I lose pressure if I use an adapter,1/4 npt male to a an6, then a an6 to an8?

 

The Aeromotive pumps no not have the 1/4 npt but a have an6 on S & R, they suggest to use union #15649 an-6 Port / an-8 Flare (it has a true an8 bore).

 

My concern is, will there be a pressure loss coming out of a 1/4 npt.  I'm using Aeromotive By-Pass Regulator 13204

Thanks!

John, you won't loose pressure but you will loose some volume. The distinction is that pressure is the "push" behind the fluid and volume is the "amount". The way to think about this is that if you have a big hole and a little hole with the same push behind the fluid, the big hole will let more fluid through. Most people confuse pressure and volume but they aren't the same thing. Nerdy semantics.

 

Your pressure regulator is adjustable from 3-15psi, so will you be setting it to around 7psi? The chart for the GPA-4 pump gives the following data: With the alternator charging at 13.5v,  0psi= 81GPH, 10psi=81GPH, and 20psi=80GPH so you will be getting around 81GPH. 

 

TanksInc says the GPA-4 pump is good to 630HP. Just to verify this I went to onallcylinders.com and found a formula to give HP from GPH usage:

Optmial GPH= (max HP x BSFC)/6

BSFC is brake specific fuel consumption and Holly says that an engine needs .5 pounds of fuel per HP every hour at wide open throttle.

We already know the GPH is 81 so:

81=(HPx.5)/6

6x81=HPx.5

486/.5=HP

or HP=972, so  the pump could supply enough fuel for up to 972HP. I believe the Tanksinc estimate of 630HP is low because they are expecting it to be used on an EFI system which uses higher fuel pressure and according to the charts that gives lower fuel volume (counter intuitive isn't it?). If that isn't enough volume go with the bigger GPA-6 pump ;)

[prayers1 153]

No Dave, Its me and my crazy set up, Because I'm first trying it with a Carb.

 

Aeromotive said that I need at least 1/2" on S & R, If going TBI I just need 3/8 or an6 just like your using.

 

My past history with my engine is that I lose fuel pressure at high, it goes from 6 to 3 psi's.

I changed everything from carb to tank and supply lines.  I've been told that it might be a volume problem.

So,I want to try an electric pump w/ the carb and see if anything changes, then later to TBI.

 

Terry,

Thank you for digging up that info!

I'm around 450 hp, so if the pump can handle up to 972 hp then I'm good with that.

As in the case with volume vs. pressure, I'm still on the fence. Right now my main concern is about the 1/4 npt coming out of the Tanks pump, all of them have 1/4 npt S & R.

 

Can I use it and will there be any harm going from 1/4 npt to an6, then to an8 ???????

 

Keep in mind that the Aeromotive fitting #15649 opens the fitting up from 6an to 8an w/ a true 8 an bore, so if I get a fitting off the 1/4 npt that goes to an6, I can then go right to an8 w/ the above fitting that will work with the 1/2" line.

 

 

Hope I'm making sense and you guys are understanding what I'm trying to get across. I really want to minimize my expenses and the Tanks set up seems the cheapest.

 

The crazy thing here is that I cancelled my Tanks Inc order, I have a Phantom 200 in the box sitting in the garage and now I contemplating buying the Mustangs to Fear Aluminum tank, just because it has an in tank pump and the fittings originate outside of the trunk and are 1/2". 

 

I know, I know, i know............................

 

Thanks to all for your time and help!

John

[det0326 179]

John 

 

I know it is to little to late now but did you ever check the lift on the fuel pump lobe. I'm not that familiar with  the Cleveland because it has been years since I have worked on one but as I recall the fuel pump mechanism is  very similar to some of the earlier Pontiac engines. The eccentric that bolts to the end of the cam had a tang that went in a hole on the cam to drive it but it could also be put in the keyway and be driven also but would not provide enough lift .  As to your question above IMHO I don;t think you have a problem with the way you're doing it I believe you will have more than enough fuel supply with the 1/4" fittings at the pump. That Cleveland would have to use a lot of fuel to ever starve your fuel delivery system. 

 

Dave

[prayers1 153]

I'm familiar with the eccentric and also think that might be the culprit.  I dropped the oil pan and tried to check it w/o taking off the front of the engine and couldn't see anything obvious. What also makes me think it might be eccentric related is that I took an off the shelf mechanical pump from a local part store and it did the same thing.  Right now I have a very good pump made by RobbMc and used an6 hose w/ less constrictive fittings.

 

So, the above concern gives me an excuse jump over to EFI which I really want to do.  I just didn't want to try it with an in-line electric pump then switch to in-tank pump, that would of been a waste of money.

 

I'll let this decision stay around over the weekend and seem if others agree.  If so, I have the choice to use the Aeromotive Phantom 200 and cut a hole in my nice stainless steel 22 gal gas tank or return it and get the Tanks Inc as you know the pump is center of the tank.  With the Aeromotive we found out that the sending unit float will contact the pump if mounted in the center of the tank. Therefore, I'll have to mount it at one of the front corners where there is more tank to rib manipulate.

 

Dave, how do you feel with the unit at the center of the tank vs. to the front left or right corner?

 

Open to all opinions!

John

[Mach1 Driver 560]

As in the case with volume vs. pressure, I'm still on the fence. Right now my main concern is about the 1/4 npt coming out of the Tanks pump, all of them have 1/4 npt S & R.

 

Can I use it and will there be any harm going from 1/4 npt to an6, then to an8 ???????

 

Dave,

A 1/4 npt is .364 ID, a 6-AN is .375 ID, and a 8-AN is .5 ID.

The manufacturer of the pump says it WILL give you 81 GPH WITH a 1/4 npt fitting. Their graphs are from actual tests they have run. I don't see why they would falsify the data. Politicians do that, not engineers ;)

[prayers1 153]

So do we agree that if I go 1/4 npt to 6an to 6an/8an to 1/2 line, that I shouldn't have any loss of pressure or volume?

[fordguy69 24]

prayers, I have my aeromotive phantom mounted in the right middle of my tank and it works fine.  Their mounting ring system handles the ribbing well, no sealing issues at all.

[prayers1 153]

Is it the tank from them or did you install it yourself.  Pictures would be nice:)

I thought the sending units float would hit it it was extended ,such as when the tank if full.

[det0326 179]

John 

 

I assume the pump you would be using has the baffle or reservoir made on with the pump and if so I don't think it would cause a problem putting it in front corner, if you want it in the middle where the stock pickup is you could also get the sending unit from tanks inc that mounts on top of the tank also. I under stand too that you don't won't all this plumbing on top where it can be seen because of showing the car. If your going to cut holes and put the pump on top anyway in my opinion I would go with the tanks inc before doing that these tanks inc tanks are really nice but you have to sacrifice some appearance and if you make a cover to go over the plumbing it would probably cost you points at a car show.     

[fordguy69 24]

Is it the tank from them or did you install it yourself.  Pictures would be nice:)

I thought the sending units float would hit it it was extended ,such as when the tank if full.

Stock 22 gallon 1970 tank.  No problems with the sending unit.  I'll try to find pics for you.

[shaun071 62]

I've seen pictures of a 70 22 gal tank with a flat area in the front left corner where the emissions gear was plumbed in. I think some of the repop tanks have it too. Might be a solution to the pump location.

[prayers1 153]

Yeah I saw that too. I think it was on RockAuto for $98.00.  It had a flat spot on the left front corner.

 

So many options, my brain is hurting.....

[Mach1 Driver 560]

So do we agree that if I go 1/4 npt to 6an to 6an/8an to 1/2 line, that I shouldn't have any loss of pressure or volume?

You are concerned with volume- your goal is to have good volume, and you get that- this particular pump will give 81 GPH. 

Going to progressively larger line and fittings does not hurt your goal. 

 

You are getting confused with pressure and volume again- don't worry about pressure. It is more than ample to get the job done. If you want to know what is actually happening then read on: You start with the 1/4 npt, go to 6-AN which is slightly bigger, and then go to 8-AN which is bigger still. The pressure is highest at the 1/4npt because it is the smallest, which constricts the molecules, as the lines and fittings get bigger there is more room for the molecules so they don't bump into one another as much- so the pressure actually goes down. But pressure and volume are inversely proportional to each other. This means that as the pressure decreases, the volume increases. Keep your eye on the ball, and the ball is volume, which is good. In your question you asked "I shouldn't have any loss of pressure or volume?" which is technically incorrect- pressure goes down but volume is OK.

 

Yes it will work. 

[prayers1 153]

Terry, Thank you for the effort and time to explain the above! I really appreciate it.

 

I understand what your saying, I do.  I'm just having a hard time getting my head around the ID of 1/4 npt. 

If only I can look at the fitting off of the Tanks pump, I would like to see if that fittings ID measurement is exactly the same ID measurement on the threaded portion.  Somehow I'm thinking the other end of that fitting has a smaller ID then the threaded end.  To others it might not make a difference, but it does to me since I have been fighting this fuel pressure bug for a while and if I'm gonna invest this much money, I want the best scenario possible.

 

I have a few pictures below:

One is the flared side of a 1/4 npt, an-6 and an-8 Aeromotive fitting #15649 (an-6 to an-8 w/an-8 bore).

Respectively they measured 6.40 mm, 8.00mm & 9.90mm.

Second picture is the 1/4 npt threaded end and the an-6 threaded end, each are 11.67mm & 12.99mm.

Third is the Aeromotive fitting on the an-6 ( to give you an ideal how it looks w/o the use of more reducers)

 

The Aeromotive Phantom pumps have the an-6 female fitting right off the pump, the Aeromotive #15649 screws right onto that with an ORB seal, then to a 1/2" line, that means less fittings used and restriction in mm.

 

Am I making any sense or it it just too much bull for the gain of millimeters.

 

[Mach1 Driver 560]

John, so are you concerned about the ID of the adapter that goes on the pump? And this varies between adapters and hose fittings? They would have to do the pump tests with lines attached or they would have no way of collecting and measuring the fuel output. 

 

You can get one adapter with male threads on each side that looks like the black part in picture 3. It would go from the 1/4 npt on the pump to 8-AN for the lines. I don't know the ID, but it is available from Summit: 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwitmJfj7JjLAhXDaz4KHZ36DdUQFghBMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.summitracing.com%2Fsearch%2Fpart-type%2Fan-to-npt-fittings%2Fan-size%2Fminus-8%2Fnpt-size%2F1-4-in&usg=AFQjCNFMaKuXtfdi38vW58cAlMoFSHv5VA&sig2=uKT6GPSfwmwPZKeLB8LKHA

 

Dave used a similar adapter but used fittings to go to a 5/16 steel line in "1969 tanks inc tank filler neck" near the end of the thread on page two are some pictures- he did a nice job. Another thing to think about is that you are getting an adjustable regulator- you can crank it up if you have a restriction to get the pressure you want at the carb. The pump will put out waaaayyyy more than you need for even an EFI system. I just don't see how it could be a problem. If anyone else does please chime-in and give John some reassurance; how about barnett 468 or 1969-Mach1??

[prayers1 153]

Even though the Regulator is adjustable, Aeromotive told me that their by-pass pressure regulator will do the as long as the return line is 8-an, if anything less it will not.

 

Also here's from their page

"carbureted engines producing from 300- 900 plus flywheel Horse Power, on the street or at the track.  AN-08 Style fuel hose and hose-ends are required for the installation of a fuel supply and return line."

 

"Failure to follow the above recommendations may result in fuel leakage, bursting of the fuel lines, poor vehicle performance and/or decreased fuel pump life! Improper installation will void all warranties for this product!"

 

That was a good find 1/4 npt to 8-an. I wonder how big the bore is and if one can be found with an o-ring ORB.

[prayers1 153]

Well, with all that's been discussed, I came to the conclusion to use the Aeromotive Phantom 200.  This pump can be used with a Throttle body or Carburetor.

In my mind, I felt that the out put fitting on the Aeromotive was less constricting.

I've enclosed a photo of the Return and you can see how wide open it is through out the neck for the an-6 fitting.

 

Also enclose is a picture what is given with the Phantom package and a picture of my nice shinny SS tank that I have to figure the best location for the pump.  I'm thinking where the black ring is sitting, I'll need more line length for the fuel filter that will follow the original fuel line, I can mount in front of the tank.

 

Now off to the planning stage!

 

Open to any opinions.

Thanks!

[BuckeyeDemon 211]

what's the ID of the rubber hose for the fuel pump (or even better, what's the ID of the pump)?

[prayers1 153]

Now you ask this question!

It didn't dawn on me to see, it still has the rubber boot on the ends. I was surprised, so I don't know if you knew or didn't but it was a lot smaller ID then I thought it would be.

 

I'm not an engineer, but to me it looks like it wouldn't matter what size the the output fitting is, either an-6 or 1/4 npt, because the output looks like a soda straw.  My guess is that they make it that way to create more pressure.

 

Pump out put ID 5.50mmr

Pump intake ID 7.80mm

Tube from pump to outlet 8.40mm

[BuckeyeDemon 211]

(my personal opinions), I'm an electrical engineer, so i equate other systems to electronics (a lot of synergy in the world).  fuel lines are like resistors.  so much resistance per foot.  solid tube has some resistance, braided hose may have more resistance per foot (in many cases it's corrugated inside), 90 degree sharp bends will have more resistance then slow bends, etc.  So let's say you have 8' of 1/2" line at 1 ohm per foot, and the small hose and fitting at the start is 4 ohms per foot (total of 6"), then your total line impedance/resistance would be something like 10 ohms, where the long 1/2" ends up dictating the total resistance of the system.  That resistance results in a pressure loss from pump to the end.

 

in a carb engine with a high pressure capable EFI pump, the return line is more important.  simply because, you could have a little excess drop in the feed line and still be able to achieve the 5-7 psi at the carb (too much drop and you just won't be able to deliver the power (e.g. fuel volume) to the carb).  The return path resistance must be less than 5 psi or your bypass regulator won't do much good. 

 

An EFI setup will be the opposite.  You can't have much drop to the regulator/injector but could have more in the return.

 

again, just my opinions.

[Mach1 Driver 560]

(my personal opinions), I'm an electrical engineer, so i equate other systems to electronics (a lot of synergy in the world).  fuel lines are like resistors.  so much resistance per foot.  solid tube has some resistance, braided hose may have more resistance per foot (in many cases it's corrugated inside), 90 degree sharp bends will have more resistance then slow bends, etc.  So let's say you have 8' of 1/2" line at 1 ohm per foot, and the small hose and fitting at the start is 4 ohms per foot (total of 6"), then your total line impedance/resistance would be something like 10 ohms, where the long 1/2" ends up dictating the total resistance of the system.  That resistance results in a pressure loss from pump to the end.

 

in a carb engine with a high pressure capable EFI pump, the return line is more important.  simply because, you could have a little excess drop in the feed line and still be able to achieve the 5-7 psi at the carb (too much drop and you just won't be able to deliver the power (e.g. fuel volume) to the carb).  The return path resistance must be less than 5 psi or your bypass regulator won't do much good. 

 

An EFI setup will be the opposite.  You can't have much drop to the regulator/injector but could have more in the return.

 

again, just my opinions.

I like the analogy- you're treating the plumbing as though it is series resistance in an electrical system and assigning each feature appropriate ohms/foot. Let me see if I can follow your reasoning.  Your premise that the EFI is just the opposite of the carb setup is because the EFI operates at 58 psi vrs. 7 psi for the carb, and a restriction on the supply side would greater hinder the EFI system??

Are there any mechanical engineers out there that would dispute this premise??

[BuckeyeDemon 211]

I like the analogy- you're treating the plumbing as though it is series resistance in an electrical system and assigning each feature appropriate ohms/foot. Let me see if I can follow your reasoning. Your premise that the EFI is just the opposite of the carb setup is because the EFI operates at 58 psi vrs. 7 psi for the carb, and a restriction on the supply side would greater hinder the EFI system??

 

Yes