EFI install options

[prayers1 153]

What were your pro and cons on either?

[Mach1 Driver 560]

Looking towards hoses, such as fuel, return & supply lines. I took a tour on the Russell website and see a few interesting ones there.

1,  Twist-lok, but I guess it wouldn't be right because there is no metal protection around the hose. 

2,  Powerflex hose which is PTFE inner liner with 308 stainless steel braid.

3,  ProClassic hose which is a nylon fiber outer braid with a CPE inner liner.

 

I'm not a fan of metal lines with crushed sleeves, I think in the long run it will leak.

 

Mach1 Driver- You gave a pretty good detailed write up on the Twist-Lok hose.  Is this what FiTech said to use?   The only thing I'd be concerned about is road debris or exhaust pipe heat.  That's why I'm leaning toward the braided type. Have you purchased the hoses yet or installed the same???

 

Which hose is the preferred choice for doing this EFI conversion?

 

 

 

FiTech says most people use Russel Twist Loc.

I'm in the middle of doing concrete work so I can get my two post lift installed. Then I can get a good look at the bottom of the beast and make a decision on fuel line routing etc., and finally I'll make a decision on the types, but I'm leaning toward steel line with 3480 stainless braid/PTFE wherever it needs to be flexible. To me that combination will be the most durable and best looking. Also PTFE won't allow any fuel smell to permeate the hose, although its not sanctioned by NHRA. 

[prayers1 153]

Well, hurry up whats taking so long!

Only kidding:) I'm envious!!  One day I'll build a detached garage with a lift, some day.......................................................................................

 

In regards to you choice of hose, I don't understand why you would mix solid steel w/ 3480 stainless braid/PTFE.  Why not use just stainless braid/PTFE.

 

I've checked Pegasus Auto Racing and see 2 options, 811 or 910 stainless braided PTFE.  Is this the type of hose that is very difficult to connect fittings.

Very expensive. Any other suppliers that are less expensive.

 

I read that others have used the original line as a return. Whats your take on that?

[Mach1 Driver 560]

In regards to you choice of hose, I don't understand why you would mix solid steel w/ 3480 stainless braid/PTFE.  Why not use just stainless braid/PTFE.

 

I've checked Pegasus Auto Racing and see 2 options, 811 or 910 stainless braided PTFE.  Is this the type of hose that is very difficult to connect fittings.

Very expensive. Any other suppliers that are less expensive.

 

I read that others have used the original line as a return. Whats your take on that?

The steel line is mechanically superior to hose, and you can even go one better with stainless line, although it is more difficult to bend.

The Russel Twist-loc appears to be the most difficult to put a fitting on, but if you go up this thread to page 2 and click on my post with the You Tube link to installing AN fittings on stainless braided hose, it doesn't look too difficult. The guy in the video is a bit crusty and kinda reminds me of one of my drill instructors way back when.

[MikeStang 247]

AN Fittings are pretty easy to do, just gotta remember to not use 2 much tape on the hose and have a GOOD Set of cutters... 2 Much tape = Hose not fitting into the fitting... Cheap Cutters = Hose cuts with stragglers left to mess stuff up... Have seen a lot of guys use angle grinders with thin cut off wheels to cut it and it works pretty good but you need to use painters tape if you go that route

[fordguy69 24]

Well, hurry up whats taking so long!

Only kidding:) I'm envious!!  One day I'll build a detached garage with a lift, some day.......................................................................................

 

In regards to you choice of hose, I don't understand why you would mix solid steel w/ 3480 stainless braid/PTFE.  Why not use just stainless braid/PTFE.

 

I've checked Pegasus Auto Racing and see 2 options, 811 or 910 stainless braided PTFE.  Is this the type of hose that is very difficult to connect fittings.

Very expensive. Any other suppliers that are less expensive.

 

I read that others have used the original line as a return. Whats your take on that?

 

Check out these guys for PTFE and fittings.  I got all mine from them.  Quality stuff.  Found them over on a pro touring web site.  Their coated stainless PTFE is really tough durable line.

 

http://www.anfittingsdirect.com/?osCsid=dffbaf077b5a596a31f1c30ebe748202

 

 

 

 

 

 

[1969_Mach1 333]

What were your pro and cons on either?

I think you are referring to the spark plugs.  At least on my motor I immediately noticed a better idle quality with NGK V-groove spark plugs.  They look to be burning better than Autolite's as well.  Last thing I've noticed is the NGK spark plugs are a little shorter than Autolite spark plugs.  Thus, providing more clearance between spark plug wire boots and header tubes  I use NGK spark plugs in both my 69 Mach 1 and my daily driver F150.

 

For spark plugs I use to stick with: Fords get Motorcraft or Autolite (I prefer Motorcraft over Autolite), GM gets A/C Delco, and Mopar get Champion.  But, NGK's seem to work better in my Fords so I thought I'd throw it out there.

[prayers1 153]

Nice find there Fordguy69!  What type of line did you get. Are you using 6an or 8 an.

 

1969_Mach1, that's something to think about. I have to pull the new plugs I installed the other day to regap them. I had it at .50 but Barnett468 said something that caught my attention, so I called MSD and they suggest I gap mine on my 351C at .45.  That would be the chance to try the NGK's.

[prayers1 153]

This is a learning curve for me going EFI, so if you guys can steer me in the right direction I'll really appreciate it and won't make any costly mistakes, also who knows some one else may also benefit from this thread.

Don't be shy to correct me or give an opinion. This is what this forum is for.

 

I'm going to get the Tanks Inc in pump tank, pump and sending unit.  I'm gonna run the supply were the original ran and run the return the same way but on the opposite side. The vent hose will go around and tap into the filler tube or the drain plug.  I want to run this set up with my current Quick Fuel 735 carb, This way I can concentrate on the fuel system then move onto the FiTech, so I'll be installing a regulator & bracket that bolts to the front and rear carb studs on the passenger side. I know FiTech has one built in, so I'll have to cross that bridge when I get the FiTech.

 

It is my understanding that FiTech uses 6an lines and that for my Carb using an electric fuel pump you have to use 8an. Is that correct?

If so, could I use the 8an on the FiTech, so that I don't have to buy another set of hoses.

 

At this point I need help wiring the power to pump w/ a relay. Any suggestions or diagrams.

 

I also, need help deciding what hose to use.  Safety is a must. What do you all think?

 

Can you just use PTFE on the supply and use  a metal line on the return.  I believe the return has less pressure so can you still use hose clamps???

[1969_Mach1 333]

I gap mine at 0.045".  The CR in my 351W is 10.7:1.  My thought is with high CR you're better being a little conservative on the spark plug gap and not worry about the gap causing any misfires. 

[det0326 179]

Prayers   I just received my Tanks inc tank last Friday and it came with a roll over vent and if I understand it correctly it will breath in both directions and you really don't need a vented cap. It says to mount the vent vertically and as high or higher than the filler neck. I am in the process now of running the hard lines. My car was stripped down for restoration and I had to replace the lines any way so I ran supply and return with steel tubing. I am going to run both lines up the inside of the passenger side frame rail until I get to the cross member then 90* over and go above the tranny up the fire wall and come out behind the engine then PTFE flex to the Throttle Body. I thought I would tell you about the vent and you will probably get one with yours too and may want to use that instead of your vented cap. I think this vent is suppose to keep down the gas smell in your garage because it will only suck in or purge out if and when it needs to.

 

Dave

[prayers1 153]

det0326-

Thank you for sharing your build! Nice ideal about the roll over vent, my garage always smells like gas.

Why not just go with both lines where the original line ran?

Where did you get your tubing and what size is it.

What is used for compression at the fittings.

[Mach1 Driver 560]

I just received my Tanks inc tank last Friday and it came with a roll over vent and if I understand it correctly it will breath in both directions and you really don't need a vented cap. It says to mount the vent vertically and as high or higher than the filler neck. I am in the process now of running the hard lines. My car was stripped down for restoration and I had to replace the lines any way so I ran supply and return with steel tubing. I am going to run both lines up the inside of the passenger side frame rail until I get to the cross member then 90* over and go above the tranny up the fire wall and come out behind the engine then PTFE flex to the Throttle Body. I thought I would tell you about the vent and you will probably get one with yours too and may want to use that instead of your vented cap. I think this vent is suppose to keep down the gas smell in your garage because it will only suck in or purge out if and when it needs to.

 

Dave

Dave, I intend to use a Tanks Inc tank also and was wondering what the rollover vent looked like- could you post a picture? Originally I was going to put the vent near the differential, but the wheel wells would be higher (but dirtier).

[Mach1 Driver 560]

The vent hose will go around and tap into the filler tube or the drain plug.

 

It is my understanding that FiTech uses 6an lines and that for my Carb using an electric fuel pump you have to use 8an. Is that correct?

If so, could I use the 8an on the FiTech, so that I don't have to buy another set of hoses.

 

At this point I need help wiring the power to pump w/ a relay. Any suggestions or diagrams.

 

I also, need help deciding what hose to use.  Safety is a must. What do you all think?

 

Can you just use PTFE on the supply and use  a metal line on the return.  I believe the return has less pressure so can you still use hose clamps???

 

prayers1: 

1. I'm a little confused about the "vent hose". Is this a RETURN coming from the regulator you are temporarily installing for the carb? The Tanks Inc pump has three connections- the pump output, a return line for fuel coming back to the tank, and a vent to atmosphere. There is no need to go to the fill tube or the drain on the bottom of the tank, everything is up at the pump.

2. 8AN is 8/16 = 1/2", while 6AN is 6/16 = 3/8" hose. I doubt that the carb uses that much more fuel than the FiTech but it doesn't hurt to run a bigger hose. You can use a fitting to reduce the size and go into the FiTech when you install that later. The volume will be affected by the smallest passage- the 8 to 6 fitting. The pump has a 1/4 NPT fitting so I don't think 1/2" hose will help much.

3. I would suggest an inertia switch and relay as mentioned earlier in this thread. The explanation will get a little messy so I'll do it in a later post since you are initially using a carburetor and this isn't really about EFI anymore.

4. As for hose I intend to use 3480 from Pegasus Auto Racing Supplies as mentioned on page 2 of this thread in the attachment AN Hose and Fittings.

5. If your old steel line is rust free there is no reason not to use it. The Tanks Inc pump has 1/4 NPT supply and return fittings so they expect some pressure on the return side and hose with clamps would not be recommended. The atmosphere vent is the only line that has a barb for a hose and clamps.

[Mach1 Driver 560]

Fuel pump inertia hookup.docAt this point I need help wiring the power to pump w/ a relay. Any suggestions or diagrams.

 

 

 

Attached is a wire diagram-  it put it up above in your quote

[det0326 179]

Prayers    

The line could be run up either side doesn't matter really but the reason I went to the inside of the frame rail is because I have never liked how the fuel line is exposed to rear wheel area,  as how it was ran originally. Then when I get toward the front and go up the fire wall It will be right behind the engine where I to be for the FiTech to connect and not have to cross over the frame rail .  Also if I ran it as it was originally I would have to go through the fender apron at the front and I didn't want to do that, going up the fire wall it will be tucked away out of site. I got the tubing from  Inline Tube I ran 3/8" for supply and 5/16" for return. I am using jic flared hydraulic fittings and ptfe hose to connect the hard lines to the FiTech at the engine.  I used bulkhead fittings through the trunk floor right in front of the tank and plan to cover the whole tank with a sheet metal cover so the lines and fittings want be seen when the trunk is open.

[prayers1 153]

Sorry, thinking two things as one.

 

Yes either Carb of TBI, I'll be running the return to the Electric Fuel Pump return port.

 

A 1/4" supply & return.  Does that seem a bit too small? There would be no benefit using a 1/2" since it will be reduced by the 1/4".

Will we need a reducer fitting from 6an to 1/4 npt?

 

Do you have a guestimate about the length of hose and your choice of routing?

 

I've read some will use the trans tunnel then cross over. I don't have much real estate there and it gets very hot from the shorty headers.

I like how Buckeyedemon did his on the Pass side, copying the supply side.

Others have doubled on the drivers side running parallel using 1/2 INCH HYDRAULIC BRAKE FUEL LINE HOSE CLAMP 3480.

 

Are using only the  811 Stainless Steel Braided Hose for supply & return or incorporation some metal steel lines, such as using the factory line for the majority of length and tapping in the braided when it comes closer to the connections.

 

Are you also using the 811 for vent or something else.

 

I see were on at the same time this morning, Thanks for the wiring diagram!!

[det0326 179]

Mach 1 Driver   

 

Here is a pic of the vent valve. Directions says it needs to be as high or higher than the filler neck which sorta leaves the wheel well as the only option.

The ones running a wide oversize tire on the rear may have a problem with this location. Might could squeeze it in the frame rail somewhere .

[prayers1 153]

Opps no wiring diagram!

 

det0326- I checked your build thread, very nice, impressive work, your car has come a long way. I like it! But, I didn't see any pictures of the fuel line install.

Is it possible that you can post a few or add some to your thread so I can get an ideal. I might want to go that route depending on header heat of run return along the right side as the supply.

[Mach1 Driver 560]

Mach 1 Driver   

 

Here is a pic of the vent valve. Directions says it needs to be as high or higher than the filler neck which sorta leaves the wheel well as the only option.

The ones running a wide oversize tire on the rear may have a problem with this location. Might could squeeze it in the frame rail somewhere .

 

Hmm, and it needs to be positioned vertically so the hose would be coming up from below. This makes for a funky installation doesn't it? Well you've got one in your hot little hand, so please tell the rest of us Stangers how you solved the problem- pictures too please.

[Mach1 Driver 560]

Opps no wiring diagram!

 

 

 

Yeah I caught that, the wire diagram is in a Word doc, see below.

Fuel pump inertia hookup.doc

[det0326 179]

Opps no wiring diagram!

 

det0326- I checked your build thread, very nice, impressive work, your car has come a long way. I like it! But, I didn't see any pictures of the fuel line install.

Is it possible that you can post a few or add some to your thread so I can get an ideal. I might want to go that route depending on header heat of run return along the right side as the supply.

Yes Prayers I will get those pic for you. I am waiting on the fuel filter and some other fittings now, hope to get them by end of week and get that installed you can get a better idea of it. I had thought about heat from exhaust and headers too but then I convinced myself that when the engine is running the fuel will be circulating also which should have a cooling effect on the the lines. i won't be that close to the headers tho since I will be making a 90* turn toward the center of the tranny at the cross member support.

Dave

[prayers1 153]

Mach 1 Driver & det0326- thank you!

[prayers1 153]

Mach1 Driver- Wow, greatly appreciated and in easy to understand terms.

[det0326 179]

Well guys, talking about the roll over vent terminating on the wheel well (which I am not fond of) it will be high enough by about 3 or 3-1/2 inches depending on where you put it in the wheel house. I may look for some other type that has maybe a barb in and out that way maybe you could run the rubber hose in a frame rail or something. I see what Ray was talking about now when he said "gas coming out in wheel well on hot disc brake, maybe I need to re-think this".

 

Dave