EFI install options

[Mach1 Driver 560]

Mach 1, I looked into the Spectra tank you mentioned. I found some photos of the inside pan and it just seemed like it wasn't a good solution. I also found a post somewhere that experienced fuel supply problems when lower amounts of fuel were in the tank, their solution was to fill up at half tank. For these reasons I am looking into either Tanks inc or Glenn's Performance since I have only read and heard good things about both of those set ups.

Thanks for sharing, that's good to know about Spectra.

Isn't the Glen Performance just a tank with a big sump and fittings coming out the back? The pictures I've seen seem to indicate that you can't put a pump in the tank, and unless you get the Stealth version you can see the fittings and lines below the back bumper. I've been meaning to call them but haven't gotten a chance yet. 

I like the Tanks Inc except for the exposed lines, fittings and wiring on top of the tank that has to be covered in some manner and run out of the trunk.

[ronz75 10]

I liked the Spectra but after reading I moved away from it. I was really leaning towards the Tanks Inc system as the total cost seemed less than Glenn's Performance. What I don't like though is the lines in the trunk, so I am back to looking at Glenn's I figure once I add the bulkhead fittings and stuff the two set ups are almost a wash cost wise. So as of now I like the stealth setup from Glenn's with a Walbro 392 pump mounted right outside the tank. But I am still working on my final solution.

[prayers1 153]

So, you guys liking the Glens Performance tank will have to have an external pump?

 

From what I gather, there is a incoming and out going fitting that you tie into the pump and return. The sending unit is only used for the fuel gauge ?????

[ronz75 10]

Yes an external pump is required, that's the only negative I see. It does have a supply and return and you can decide what size fittings you want.

The line on the sending unit is not used so you have to close it off some how. Or you could order the Glenn's setup with no return and use the sending unit connection for the return.

[Mach1 Driver 560]

   Of all the options so far explored I prefer the Tanks Inc unit, even though you have to protect the lines and run them out of the trunk. I like the three fittings on the pump: supply, return and vent. There are four versions of the pump for just about any horsepower range you want.

  I've seen pictures of the inside of their 62 Chevy tank- which admittedly is much different than ours. It had an internal box welded to the floor with several holes in the bottom for fuel flow and was open on the top for the pump to fit inside. The sides looked to be 4-5" high. It was simple and effective. I've read many good reviews with only one complaint: the fuel sender had to be put in first without the float and then that was installed afterwards, presumably through the pump hole. I don't know if this applies to all the tanks.

[MikeStang 247]

I Ran an Aeromotive A1000 external pump for years with the return to the drain plug on my old Trans am and never had an issue, and I was only running to a carb at 6.5 PSI and there was plenty pressure to overcome the bottom of the tank location of the drain plug.

Don't let that deter you from using this location if that is the route your thinking about going... You can come up near the frame rail and drop down to the drain plug with a 90 or something to get you into the plug if your worried about hitting stuff...

Not saying its the best or only option but I know a low pressure set up will over come the weight of the fuel easily enough so it is stils a viable option

[MikeStang 247]

You know if you have a good tank you can order their EFI Tank Conversion Kit and save some bucks, but you will have to plug off your stock fuel sending unit holes.

I wonder what kinda pump you would have to get at a parts store to replace their pump just in case your's went out on the road?>

[prayers1 153]

I'm still a little green on this project and each time I read this thread, new ideals pop up.

 

I need a little help here figuring what to do.......

 

I have a 351 Cleveland and setting initial and mechanical advance was always a mystery, I never knew if I had the perfect timing.

With that said, I'd like the EFI to control timing.  This Thread mentioned that using a MSD 6a IC box caused troubles from multiple sparks as the EFI wants one clean spark. The FiTech Instruction sheet shows that a MSD IC box can be used.  You would think more spark, more power.

 

Based on FiTech & MSD, I was advised to pull my Mallory Unilite Dist and use the MSD Mech Dist #8577 w/ the advance lock out option. 

So, I just installed the MSD #8577 & MSD 6a and got the car running with the Carb.  The Dist is not a ready to run unit and needs a IC box for it to work.

 

So, now I'm confused w/ the timing control feature.  I assume the FiTech trigger wire can make the MSD Dist work or not????

Is there an advantage using the MSD 6a????  I can't believe behind that little electronic control box mounted on the FiTech Throttle Body has more power than the MSD 6a.

 

Open to opinions!

 

[Black_69_FB 49]

I can't believe behind that little electronic control box mounted on the FiTech Throttle Body has more power than the MSD 6a.

 

Power comes from the coil, not the controller.

 

Controller only tells the coil when to fire, and whether the FiTech is controlling the coil or an MSD box is controlling it, both get the signal from the pickup in the dizzy.

 

So think of the controller like a middle man. MSD box gets the signal from the dizzy (which controls advance with springs & vac. can), and sends multiple copies to the coil (multiple spark). FiTech unit gets the signal, and manipulates the timing per its programming (since dizzy is locked and cannot advance).

 

Coil just does what it's told, when it's told. Like most of us at our jobs :P

[prayers1 153]

Black_69_FB,  Ok I see.

What about the comments regarding the MSD 6a interfering, when FiTech actual has the diagram on the Instruction sheet to use?

 

Is there an advantage using the MSD 6a?

[Mach1 Driver 560]

Black_69_FB,  Ok I see.

What about the comments regarding the MSD 6a interfering, when FiTech actual has the diagram on the Instruction sheet to use?

 

Is there an advantage using the MSD 6a?

 

prayers1: the comments about the MSD interfering are if you hook the EFI to the coil to get a tach signal. That isn't happening using this wire diagram. Here the two wire distributor plugs directly into the EFI to tell it what the RPM is. This gives it a nice stable tach signal. Then the EFI applies the advance as you have it programmed. That is ouput to the MSD via the black wire. Then the MSD does its thing- it outputs voltage multiple times on each power stroke to the coil. This is a good setup if you are going to use nitrous or boost, but unneeded otherwise according to FiTech. It's still cool even if unneeded.

The only thing I would caution is that if you use a high voltage coil, the higher output voltage can interfere with electronics in devices like the EFI, MSD, radio, etc. The higher energy coil will broadcast electrical noise like a radio station that can be conducted by wires or radiated directly into other electronic devices. Its called EMI- electromagnetic interference and can be difficult to remedy.

 

You have a 351c, so since you already installed the  MSD #8577 distributor, did you have any clearance issues with the air cleaner?

What do you have for:

1. carburetor

2. intake manifold

3. air cleaner

The reason I ask is because the 351w can have clearance issues between the air cleaner and dizzy using some of the aftermarket intake manifolds. The stock 351w air cleaner already has an emboss for the cap and wires in it- I assume the 351c uses the same air cleaner (but I don't like to assume).

[prayers1 153]

Thank you for clearing that up.

In my hast I ran through the thread and thought different, glad you steered my straight. Anyway that's good news!

 

This will be a 2 part response:

 

Part 1-

Yes I did install the Dist and MSD 6a, did a quick hook up to see if I had it wired it right and started it up.  I haven't decided how I'm gonna hide my wires so I haven't cut them yet.

 

Interesting that you mentioned the coil output. I have been using the Mallory e-coil, Prim 1.400 ohms, secondary 8.9k, max 46000. It's mounted on the fender apron. I  do some street racing but mostly show the car and wanted to get more of a stock look, so I have already been thinking of the canister type coil, but when comparing canister type coils like the MSD Blaster 2, Blaster SS, Crane PS 20 or others, I think that the e-coils are still stronger and always believed to use the strongest voltage possible.

 

I never play the radio so I never heard any electrical noise from the e-coil.

 

Now with the above mentioned, tour making think to go to a lower voltage (which is against my thinking), do you think I should get the Canister Coil or stick w/ the e-Coil.  I would be happier if you said the Canister type since it fits the engine style I'm after.

 

What coil do you think I should use with my application?

[1969_Mach1 333]

An MSD canister type coil will be fine for your application.  MSD has one that is epoxy filled instead of oil filled for more vibration resistance.  Plus it's black not red.

[prayers1 153]

Part 2-

 

The MSD Billet Dist 8577 stabbed in the easiest then any other Dist used.  Usually I have to jack the car up so that the oil pump rod tilts in a way for the distributor to slide onto, not w/ the MSD.  I don't know why and I took it in & out 2x's, maybe because it's Billet made?

 

As for clearance with the Blue Thunder Intake, no problems the housing turns w/o hitting the large intake runners.

As for the Shaker, I use a homemade type that I made from a stock metal air cleaner base. The clearance is close but it works

and one with the aftermarket fiberglass shaker base that was used with a 289. It has a tighter clearance but it works as well.

 

I took a few pictures for you, one showing the intake clearance, one with the metal and fiberglass air cleaner base and one of the Mallory e-coil location and MSD 6a  mounted behind the left headlight.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[prayers1 153]

Are you talking about the Street Fire MSD Coiln 5524?

 

The write up says:

The E-core dual connector and TFI coils feature epoxy-filled construction and 48,000 maximum volts. They mount directly in place of the factory coil and accept the factory connectors for an easy installation. Primary Resistance: 0.350 ohms and Secondary Resistance: 7.8K ohms.

 

Is this the one you think I should get?

[1969_Mach1 333]

I use this MSD coil.  It's NOT one of their Street Fire products.  In my opinion the Street Fire stuff is low quality.

 

http://www.msdignition.com/Products/Coils/Race/8222_-_High_Vibration_Blaster_Coil.aspx

 

Your MSD box is fairly well hidden and away from engine heat, looks good.  Tip, solder and shrink tube seal any electrical connections you might be making.  With crimp on terminal ends it's good to also solder them.  Crimp only connections and terminals sometimes eventually come loose as they expand and contract through thermal cycles.

 

 

[prayers1 153]

Thanks for the wire tip!

Wires are not in their permanent location, once settled I will make a better connect w/ shrink tubing.

 

I'm concerned about your earlier post:

"The only thing I would caution is that if you use a high voltage coil, the higher output voltage can interfere with electronics in devices like the EFI, MSD, radio, etc. The higher energy coil will broadcast electrical noise like a radio station that can be conducted by wires or radiated directly into other electronic devices. Its called EMI- electromagnetic interference and can be difficult to remedy."

 

You found the type of Coil and color I was looking for, Thank you!  But, isn't it a little stronger than my e-coil and isn't that what you were warning about.

Too much voltage for EFI.  Now I am concerned about transmitting EMI's to the EFI that has the board mounted on the FiTech TBI.

 

Also, my set up has a stock Big Block Radiator and Aluminum fan, it runs pretty hot during the Summer cruise, around 210* at a stand still or slow drive and 195* on the Highway.  One of the advantages of the e-coil is the finned body that allows cooling of the coil. 

 

Do you think the canister type such as the MSD 8222 will get too hot or not?  I will mount it as it would lock in the stock location near the left head.

Thanks!

[Mach1 Driver 560]

Thanks for the wire tip!

Wires are not in their permanent location, once settled I will make a better connect w/ shrink tubing.

 

I'm concerned about your earlier post:

"The only thing I would caution is that if you use a high voltage coil, the higher output voltage can interfere with electronics in devices like the EFI, MSD, radio, etc. The higher energy coil will broadcast electrical noise like a radio station that can be conducted by wires or radiated directly into other electronic devices. Its called EMI- electromagnetic interference and can be difficult to remedy."

 

You found the type of Coil and color I was looking for, Thank you!  But, isn't it a little stronger than my e-coil and isn't that what you were warning about.

Too much voltage for EFI.  Now I am concerned about transmitting EMI's to the EFI that has the board mounted on the FiTech TBI.

 

Also, my set up has a stock Big Block Radiator and Aluminum fan, it runs pretty hot during the Summer cruise, around 210* at a stand still or slow drive and 195* on the Highway.  One of the advantages of the e-coil is the finned body that allows cooling of the coil. 

 

Do you think the canister type such as the MSD 8222 will get too hot or not?  I will mount it as it would lock in the stock location near the left head.

Thanks!

 

You'll never know if EMI is going to be a problem until you try. If the fuel injection is glitchy after you install it, first try a stock coil and see if the problem goes away. If that doesn't do it, remove the MSD and go back to points- because the MSD outputs higher voltage to the coil than points will and that increases the output voltage. If that doesn't fix the problem then it's time to look elsewhere. It's not something you can PREDICT; you just have to take it a step at a time. Now you know that the systems may interact and if they do you have a path to follow to fix the problem. 

[prayers1 153]

Just got off the phone with MSD, I explained my set up and he advised me to get the Blaster SS #8207. He explained that the SS has a faster recharge rate then others, 300 milliamps. Which seems to be the most concern.

 

Also, he said not to run the wires from the coil and MSD 6a to dist in parallel.

 

As for EMI's, do not run anything together in parallel if one of the wires has a signal (such as the coil wire wrapped with a signal wire).

 

I know the Blaster SS #8207 is not the Canister type I was first looking for, but the guy convinced me to get it.

 

So, Mach1 Driver, the Tech was actually repeating what you stated (Good info).

Thought I'd pass that on.

[barnett468 418]

.

The multi spark boxes clean up rich idles caused by big cams and typically increase power the most from around 1800 rpm to 2400 rpm on engines with big cams . . they seem to be a bit less effective on small cam engines.

 

with a high voltage system, you should open your plug gap to get the max benefit of them . . i use .038 to .042 . . some people use much more but no real benefit to dong this has been shown.

 

also, if your cylinder cranking pressure is around 190 or higher, i would consider using a 1 step colder spark plug.

 

i love the blue thunder intakes . . they are a thing of beauty and work well in the higher rev range.

.

[prayers1 153]

IIRC, my cranking pressure is around 185-190, cam is around 550 lift.

 

The prior Dist, the Mallory Unilite I gapped them at 45, with this MSD I set them at 50.

 

It has always been my belief that the wider gap is benefited at lower rpms, the gap really doesn't make a difference on the upper end.

 

Due to the nature of the big valve Cleveland, it's like a slow moving train off the line, but in the upper RPM's it screams. So, I thought a wider gap might give more burn time, who knows I could be wrong.

 

Always willing to learn, so whats your take?

[1969_Mach1 333]

MSD has recommendations for plug gaps based on compression ratio.  I'd follow that for plug gaps.  Keep in mind higher cylinder pressures increase the resistance for the spark to cross a gap.

[barnett468 418]

IIRC, my cranking pressure is around 185-190, cam is around 550 lift.

 

The prior Dist, the Mallory Unilite I gapped them at 45, with this MSD I set them at 50.

 

It has always been my belief that the wider gap is benefited at lower rpms, the gap really doesn't make a difference on the upper end.

 

Due to the nature of the big valve Cleveland, it's like a slow moving train off the line, but in the upper RPM's it screams. So, I thought a wider gap might give more burn time, who knows I could be wrong.

 

Always willing to learn, so whats your take?

 

the time it takes the spark to jump the gap is measured in hundreds of feet per second if not hundreds of miles per second or faster, and the duration is precisely controlled by the ignition box, therefore the width of the gap has no affect on the duration of the spark, however, the wider the gap, the more of the fuel mixture is exposed to it, but the higher the compression, the easier it is for it to blow the spark out which is why engines that use high boost use narrower than normal plug gaps.

 

i dont run huge gaps because high compression can blow wide plug gaps out or decrease the efficiency of the spark so i am a bit more conservative with the gap than others.

 

my view is, even if a .050" gap will somehow make an engine run better than a .040" gap, will one really notice it and is it enough of an improvement to take a chance of the spark being blown out.

 

PS - That's a nice engine compartment you have there!

 

.

[prayers1 153]

barnett468- Thank you for the engine bay compliment!

Now you have me concerned about spark blow out.  The MSD chart below shows my .50 gap within limits.

I hate changing plugs on that Cleveland!!

 

Good point 1969_Mach1,

Here's MSD's chart:

COMPRESSION.......PLUG GAP
Up to 10:5:1.........0.040"-0.060"
10.5:1 - 13.0:1.....0.032"-0.040"
Above 13.0:1........0.025"-0.032"

"We recommend using a standard copper plug, 1-2 heat ranges cooler than stock OE; we really have no preference for brands. Although we do suggest staying away from any "HYPE", platinum, or iridium type plugs. When you combine them with a CD type ignition, they can cause pre-ignition problem".

 

My compression is around 10.5 -10.75. I'm using the Autolite 25 how do you know what number to get if you go 1-2 heat ranges cooler.

 

 

Looking towards hoses, such as fuel, return & supply lines. I took a tour on the Russell website and see a few interesting ones there.

1,  Twist-lok, but I guess it wouldn't be right because there is no metal protection around the hose. 

2,  Powerflex hose which is PTFE inner liner with 308 stainless steel braid.

3,  ProClassic hose which is a nylon fiber outer braid with a CPE inner liner.

 

I'm not a fan of metal lines with crushed sleeves, I think in the long run it will leak.

 

Mach1 Driver- You gave a pretty good detailed write up on the Twist-Lok hose.  Is this what FiTech said to use?   The only thing I'd be concerned about is road debris or exhaust pipe heat.  That's why I'm leaning toward the braided type. Have you purchased the hoses yet or installed the same???

 

Which hose is the preferred choice for doing this EFI conversion?

 

 

 

[1969_Mach1 333]

Good question on the heat range.  Wish I knew.  If you end up changing the spark plugs I have had better luck with NGK V-Power spark plugs than Autolite spark plugs.  I'm using a complete MSD ignition system. I have a Windsor not a Cleveland and I don't know if that would have any affect on which brand plugs work better.