EFI install options

[Mach1 Driver 560]

How to make braided stainless steel fuel line using AN fittings. This video is by DIY Auto School featuring a crusty character named Pete. This isn't exactly passive aggressive stuff. He's a little cranky using f-bombs liberally, and just for fun start watching for hand gestures starting around 9:40.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIpq4XV2wJ4

[ronz75 10]

Great write up Mach 1, I am not very familiar with the Russell twist lock need to look into it for possible return line options.

 

As far as timing, I currently run a duraspark (using the small cap) with a MSD box as a trigger. I am trying to decide if I want the fi tech system controling my timing. Might run it how it is currently done just to get the system running then change timing control over. Biggest issue is phasing the distributor as I think it could become a can of worms for me.

[shaun071 62]

The aero motive tank will bolt in to a 69-70 but the filler tube will need to be modified and they are only 16 gallon capacity

[ray1970 88]

-

[Rodman 11]

The aero motive tank will bolt in to a 69-70 but the filler tube will need to be modified and they are only 16 gallon capacity

 

 I am using the 16 gallon aeromotive fuel tank, with no modification to the filler neck.  the fuel tank came with  a 60° Universal Rubber Filler Neck. that was cut to fit. also picked up a 20 gallon tank and cut the bottom off  and used the top to cover up the fuel line.

 

 

also just a heads up, fitech is owned by Ken Farrell. i bought the boss efi system retrotek speed, back in 2008. by the time the car was running in 2011, he sold out to professional products and worked with them on the pj3. tech support was not helpful for either system. i did get the car running very well but the ecu failed in 2013, so i bought the pj3 v3.0 ecu. best price without buying a new efi system. the car is running great. i can't comment on their new efi system.

 

If i was buying a completed efi system, i would go with the holley terminator. I have worked with this efi system. if i ever have another ecu failure, i will go with holley.

[Rodman 11]

The aero motive tank will bolt in to a 69-70 but the filler tube will need to be modified and they are only 16 gallon capacity

 

 I am using the 16 gallon aeromotive fuel tank, with no modification to the filler neck.  the fuel tank came with  a 60° Universal Rubber Filler Neck. that was cut to fit. also picked up a 20 gallon tank and cut the bottom off  and used the top to cover up the fuel line.

 

 

also just a heads up, fitech is owned by Ken Farrell. i bought the boss efi system retrotek speed, back in 2008. by the time the car was running in 2011, he sold out to professional products and worked with them on the pj3. tech support was not helpful for either system. i did get the car running very well but the ecu failed in 2013, so i bought the pj3 v3.0 ecu. best price without buying a new efi system. the car is running great. i can't comment on their new efi system.

 

If i was buying a completed efi system, i would go with the holley terminator. I have worked with this efi system. if i ever have another ecu failure, i will go with holley.

[rwcstang 201]

Just wanted to add to this, but I started looking at Tank INC from what you guys are posting, looks like a good tank from what I can tell but since this is my first time researching fuel injection, I did notice we can just prolly use Tank INC and FI Tech conversion. so please, correct me if Im wrong but ill try to simplify what I gathered since for alot of us are not too informative in the EFI scene.

 

 CJPP does sell their tanks w/f.pump and plumbing for about $490, so it would probably be best for those who are considering FItech Conversion to just purchase the TBI only and purchase the EFI tank from Tank Inc (Directly, or go through CJPP) since it comes with everything. but it raises questions (well for me) if the Tank Inc pump has the correct Pressure for fitech's carb or if you need to another fuel regulator to regulate the fuel pressure going to the TBI.

 

another issue is, you need re-route the plumbing to go inside the trunk since the plumbing is on top of the tank itself. if you are going to go this route, you may need to weld or make some type of covering to help cover and protect the hoses and wires so it wont get damage when you throwing stuff in your trunk. 

 

http://www.cjponyparts.com/fuel-tank-kit-efi-22-gallon-with-sending-unit-and-fuel-pump-1969-1970/p/FTKEFI2/

 

Also, I believe that is another company makes the efi tanks but the instead of the pump being on top of the tank, its almost looks like the original setup, just a mini-baffle was created, I think it somewhere around VMF forums. can't find it but i remember reading about it some where just dont remember right now... (Brain fart)

[Mach1 Driver 560]

 but it raises questions (well for me) if the Tank Inc pump has the correct Pressure for fitech's carb or if you need to another fuel regulator to regulate the fuel pressure going to the TBI.

 

another issue is, you need re-route the plumbing to go inside the trunk since the plumbing is on top of the tank itself. if you are going to go this route, you may need to weld or make some type of covering to help cover and protect the hoses and wires so it wont get damage when you throwing stuff in your trunk. 

 

http://www.cjponyparts.com/fuel-tank-kit-efi-22-gallon-with-sending-unit-and-fuel-pump-1969-1970/p/FTKEFI2/

 

rwcstang: The GPA-4 pump will pressurize the line leading to FiTech EFI, which has the internal regulator to knock the pressure down to the appropriate value. The pump supplies up to 100psi it says and FiTech's internal regulator will knock it down to 58psi I believe it said. All you need is FiTech's fuel filter between the pump and EFI and you are good to go. Look further up to get the fuel filter part number.

 

Yes CJ Pony also sells the tank and pump for the same price as listed on the TanksInc website. 

 

Yes as I mentioned earlier in the thread, we will need to cover the hoses and fuel sender wires. I envision a simple 18ga stainless sheet metal part with 4 bends that run front to back and screws in place with 4 sheet metal screws. It would be much longer front to back than wide and kind of hat shaped if seen in cross section. I would slope the verticals inward. Front and back would be open for the hoses and wires. You don't want to weld it down or you won't be able to take it out to service the pump, sender, etc. I think it could be a fairly simple part but until we get the tank, pump and hoses, we won't know what the cross sections look like. Anyone with a shear, brake and hole puncher could wack one out in no time. I have used one sheet metal shop since moving here, and it had a $100 minimum. If the shop has CNC capabilities then the more parts you get made the cheaper they become. If several people could agree on the design of the cover it would be beneficial.

[rwcstang 201]

 

 but it raises questions (well for me) if the Tank Inc pump has the correct Pressure for fitech's carb or if you need to another fuel regulator to regulate the fuel pressure going to the TBI.

 

another issue is, you need re-route the plumbing to go inside the trunk since the plumbing is on top of the tank itself. if you are going to go this route, you may need to weld or make some type of covering to help cover and protect the hoses and wires so it wont get damage when you throwing stuff in your trunk. 

 

http://www.cjponyparts.com/fuel-tank-kit-efi-22-gallon-with-sending-unit-and-fuel-pump-1969-1970/p/FTKEFI2/

 

rwcstang: The GPA-4 pump will pressurize the line leading to FiTech EFI, which has the internal regulator to knock the pressure down to the appropriate value. The pump supplies up to 100psi it says and FiTech's internal regulator will knock it down to 58psi I believe it said. All you need is FiTech's fuel filter between the pump and EFI and you are good to go. Look further up to get the fuel filter part number.

 

Yes CJ Pony also sells the tank and pump for the same price as listed on the TanksInc website. 

 

Yes as I mentioned earlier in the thread, we will need to cover the hoses and fuel sender wires. I envision a simple 18ga stainless sheet metal part with 4 bends that run front to back and screws in place with 4 sheet metal screws. It would be much longer front to back than wide and kind of hat shaped if seen in cross section. I would slope the verticals inward. Front and back would be open for the hoses and wires. You don't want to weld it down or you won't be able to take it out to service the pump, sender, etc. I think it could be a fairly simple part but until we get the tank, pump and hoses, we won't know what the cross sections look like. Anyone with a shear, brake and hole puncher could wack one out in no time. I have used one sheet metal shop since moving here, and it had a $100 minimum. If the shop has CNC capabilities then the more parts you get made the cheaper they become. If several people could agree on the design of the cover it would be beneficial.

 

ah, I was skimming along this thread on my phone and didn't see your post. thanks for the info!

[Rodman 11]

This is what i did ,

aeromotive 16 gallon fuel  tank (same fuel tank as tanks inc but aeromotive 340lph pump)   i used my filler neck from the 70 and cut the supplied hose to fit. also bought 20 gallon fuel tank to use for the top and made a spacer in between the to.

 

 

 

[Mach1 Driver 560]

This is what i did ,

aeromotive 16 gallon fuel  tank (same fuel tank as tanks inc but aeromotive 340lph pump)   i used my filler neck from the 70 and cut the supplied hose to fit. also bought 20 gallon fuel tank to use for the top and made a spacer in between the to.

 

 

 

Very Nice. What did the second 20 gal tank cost? Those look like bent metal fuel lines? Are those the sender wires going up the middle from what is probably the sender (in the front) toward the filler neck (in the rear)? By the way, the Tanks Inc tank is 22 gallon, 6 more than yours.

[Rodman 11]

they didn't make to 22 gallon back then .when i had the 22 gallon tank i only put 10 gallons in it any ways.  

 

just bought a 69 fuel tank from cj pony i think it was 100.00.

 

 

yes the fuel lines a steel 3/8 line. easy to bend and used an fitting.

 

also yes on the sending  unit wires and fuel pump wiring.  the ecu turn on a relay  and i have a 10 gauge wire from the battery to the pump.

[Big Secz 26]

I'm going to be doing an EFI install as well soon, I have a 92 5.0 H.O. and have been looking for solutions.  Ron Morris used to sell a complete fuel kit, but I don't think they have it any longer.  It utilized a fuel sending unit with an extra tube for the return line and fit in any stock tank.

 

http://www.mustangandfords.com/how-to/engine/1310-how-to-install-the-ron-morris-performance-efi-fuel-system/

[prayers1 153]

FiTech just got back to me regarding my Mallory Unilite Dist and their Timing Control.

Here's the reply:

John, the distributor will not work for timing control, you would need an magnetic pickup like an msd 2 wire pro billet or equivalent.
 

[bryonbush 85]

I'm thinking about rigging an in tank pump up to the sending unit like this

[ronz75 10]

I'm going to be doing an EFI install as well soon, I have a 92 5.0 H.O. and have been looking for solutions.  Ron Morris used to sell a complete fuel kit, but I don't think they have it any longer.  It utilized a fuel sending unit with an extra tube for the return line and fit in any stock tank.

 

I looked at the modified sending unit with a pump installed, but I kept reading of the pump running dry when low on fuel an takin turns (bad for electric pumps) or you couldn't run the tank low so a good portion of fuel was usable.

[shaun071 62]

Maybe the Holley hydra mat would work with the modded sender/pump. It may be difficult to set up some kind of anti surge tray around the pick up that would fit through the sender hole.

[Mach1 Driver 560]

 I'm thinking about rigging an in tank pump up to the sending unit like this

If that is a hydramat on the bottom of the pump that's a good idea.

 

I see the return line running down in front and the pump attached to it with wire ties, but it looks like the output side of the pump goes into a hose with clamps. That is not a high pressure connection and will eventually leak and probably spray the sender (an electrical part) with high pressure fuel. This isn't really analogous, but remember it was a damaged heater switch inside the O2 tank that caused the failure of Apollo 13. Ah Houston, we have a problem!

[rwcstang 201]

This is the first time I ever herd bout hydramat, has anyone ever used this? 

[Mach1 Driver 560]

It may be difficult to set up some kind of anti surge tray around the pick up that would fit through the sender hole. 

 

The Tanks Inc tank has a baffle: 

• EFI style internal baffling.  Extra Large 4.3 liter internal fuel tray to prevent fuel pump starvation. 

[MikeStang 247]

Did we ever get a price on a large group purchase.?..

[shaun071 62]

http://www.65fastbackrestomod.com/2011/06/it-runs-fuel-system-part-2.html?m=1

I found this on the net. Leaves you without a fuel sender though.

[Mach1 Driver 560]

The importance of a Clean Tach Signal

 

  I spoke with FiTech on one occasion and their tech said that we could connect the EFI to a stock distributor and it will run fine, but the next time I talked with them I got another tech who said that we might to able to get it running on a stock point type distributor but it wouldn't last long- it won't give a clean tach signal. That will cause all sorts of problems. He suggested a Pertronix Ignitor. Now who do you believe?

  Unfortunately he wouldn't recommend which Pertronix: Ignitor1, 2, or 3.

Ignitor1 is intended just to replace the points and gives you a magnetic two wire pickup- just what FiTech wants. Ignitor2 adjusts dwell and according to Pertronix that could clutter-up the tach signal. One tech at FiTech said they had tried Ignitor2 and didn't see any problems. Again, who is correct?

Simple logic rules out the Pertronix 3 because it is a MSD system, which means Multiple Spark Delivery. On every power stroke there are multiple sparks to the plugs. This means that the coil has to be fired multiple times for each power stroke. For a clean tach signal (at the coil) you need one hit per power stroke, unless the device has a dedicated tach line, and the Pertronix Ignitor3 does not.

  I was prowling the web searching for some insight into the tach signal problem and ran across an article in a magazine called SuperChevy. They were putting a Holly EFI on a Camaro and seemed to be sparing no expense. They connected to the coil (negative side) as usual to get the tach signal, but were having so many problems that they took the car to a dyno tune shop. The car was equipped with a MSD 6A ignition module. Once they moved the EFIs tach input line to the dedicated tach line from the ignition module the problem went away. It just goes to show you that even the car guys working on a project for a magazine don't understand some of the basic stuff- like MSD.

  In the excerpt from that article shown below, they elude to “excessive noiseâ€. They are referring to electrical “noise†which is when one device puts out electrical interference by conduction (down a wire) or broadcasting (like a radio) and interferes with another device. You can take the meaning of this in at least two different ways: 1) the multiple firing of the coil produces unwanted signals; which is certainly happening in an MSD system, and/or 2) electrical interference from the high energy ignition system (HEI) is broadcasting into other devices. If you look at the pictures in the article, there is a high output coil mounted on the firewall. These typically have an output of 40-60,000v. These things spew so much electrical noise that they interfere with your radio and other electronics. So if you have a high output coil on your Stang be careful not to interfere with the electronics of the EFI. Separate the regular wiring from the plug wires. Where they must cross, run at right angles to one another, and use special high voltage plug wires.

 

The magazine article:

http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/engines-drivetrain/1406-how-to-install-the-holley-terminator-efi-on-a-small-block-feeding-fuel/

23. The next step in firing up the Camaro was to set the TPS. Once we got the message that the TPS Autoset was successful, we were ready to fire the engine. We then followed the suggestions for letting the system start the self-tune process. Once fired, we also checked the car for any coolant or fuel leaks and opened the Monitor menu on the handheld to make sure the sensors were all reading correctly. This is where we figured out that the temp sender needed to be moved forward to a hotter area of the intake manifold.

24. The Camaro was running better, but was getting erratic IAC readings along with a high-idle rpm, and the system was stumbling a bit. To troubleshoot the system, we took the Camaro to the guys at Westech Performance in Mira Loma, California. Chassis dyno tech Eric Rhee was able to plug his laptop into the Terminator ECU and see a ton of information not available on the handheld.

25. For the system to work, it needs a good tach signal. We had the yellow wire on the harness hooked to the negative post on our coil. Normally this is fine, but Eric found we were picking up excessive "noise," and that wasn't making the Terminator happy. The solution ended up being simple. The Terminator system has a pigtail for use with ignition boxes like the MSD 6A. The wires in this loom, unlike the yellow wire we were using, are shielded, so Eric tagged a wire from the ignition box pigtail and ran it to the positive post on the coil. We then used the handheld under Ignition Setup to tell the system we were getting our tach signal from a CD ignition box.

26. With a clean tach signal, the system was able to tune as we drove around. The more we drove the Camaro, the better everything ran. One thing that helped was to vary how we drove the car, so the system could "fill in more blanks" in the tune. Now the Camaro fires up just like a new car and runs silky smooth. And while we're pretty sure the engine didn't pick up any power, we did notice the engine's powerband felt a bit different—mainly more responsive. We also noticed a slight improvement in fuel economy, but our lack of an Overdrive gear made that a bit hard to quantify. What we do know is that our Camaro's driveability is much improved, and that makes the effort more than worthwhile.

[1969_Mach1 333]

I am surprised in the Super Chevy article they tried to obtain a tach signal from the coil with a multiple spark ignition system.  Most know that is not possible and the tach terminal on the ignition box is the only source for a tach signal.

 

Maybe ask tech support at FiTech  if the tach terminal on an MSD ignition box can be tach signal source for their controller.  Seems to me it would be wise on their part to design their system to work with a multiple spark ignition system since they are so popular.

 

In my experiences with automotive performance parts tech support, its common to get different answers from different tech support personnel within the same company.  You almost have to call several times then go with the information provided by most of the tech's.

[prayers1 153]

I see that the FiTech allows a CDI Box with timing control. 

 

Does anyone know the Pros and Cons of using a CDI w/ Timing Control?