EFI install options

[ronz75 10]

With the talk of a group purchase for fi tech efi I have been researching installation which has left me with a several questions:

 

1. From my research some install an inertia switch and some don't. Is it only required for some systems? I haven't seen one way or the other on the fi tech site.

 

2. What other safety interlocks are there that should be considered?

 

3. There seems to be several options for fuel tanks/pumps: the command center, tanks inc, Glen's performance, and spectra premium. All have benefits and drawbacks.

 

4. Venting the system/fuel tank. What are others plannin?

 

So I would love to hear what others have done or plan to do. Also if there are things I have not thought of.

[Jefhuf 13]

Great thread! I also plan to get in on the group buy but like you have been starting to read up on the other bits. For my Mach I will likely replace the fuel tank with the EFI unit from Tanks Inc with an in tank pump and run new lines (supply and return) for the fuel. I hadn't thought of an inertia switch but it's a great idea and hope others interject on it.

[ronz75 10]

From all the research I have done Tanks Inc seems to be the best option, I just want to ensure I can not worry about having to fill up at a half tank. I did find another product today that I found interesting it's called Holley hydramat. Anyone heard of it?

[shaun071 62]

I've heard of the hydra mat and saw the u tube videos but don't know anyone who's used it. Looks impressive though.

Some late model Fords have a fuel pump module with an anti surge baffle built in. It's plumbed for pressure, return and vent lines so I'll be modding a new tank to fit one of those.

http://www.ebay.com.au/ulk/itm/281805453597

[bryonbush 85]

a while back when i talked to Fitech about the return lines they gave a few options. 1: new tank. 2: run your return line into the filler nozzle 3: return line into drain plug if your tank has one. my question is, how much fuel actually goes through the return line? i would think that going through the drain plug would create a lot of gravity pressure for our pumps to compete with. 

[Shep69 149]

a while back when i talked to Fitech about the return lines they gave a few options. 1: new tank. 2: run your return line into the filler nozzle 3: return line into drain plug if your tank has one. my question is, how much fuel actually goes through the return line? i would think that going through the drain plug would create a lot of gravity pressure for our pumps to compete with.

 

I was thinking about running a external pump and just running the return line back to the drain plug just to keep the instal easy . I can't see their being that much graverty pressure as the tank is lower than the intake manifold even if the tank is full. Good question though and will be interested in hearing from anyone with experience in this area. How noisey are the external pumps? Is it true that you can only run the tank half empty to avoid sucking air into the system if using the standard tank setup?

[shaun071 62]

69 fuel sender units are available with an inbuilt return fitting or you could modify yours to run the return line. I've used electric pumps on other cars in carbureted systems and they were noisy but you got used to it. That was 15+ years ago so who knows what they are like now.

[Shep69 149]

69 fuel sender units are available with an inbuilt return fitting or you could modify yours to run the return line. I've used electric pumps on other cars in carbureted systems and they were noisy but you got used to it. That was 15+ years ago so who knows what they are like now.

Yep I had one in my XY way back as well and it was that noisy I went back to the mechanical style. I thought the new ones suitable for efi might be a bit quieter. I sent FiTech a email but haven't got a reply.

[bryonbush 85]

i was looking at the efi sender units and it got me thinking: if the fi sending unit is putting gas back in at the bottom of the tank, there should be no reason why using the drain plug would be a problem. i was also watching videos on Holley's install and saw that their lines, both there and back, were the nylon braided ones. 

[Shep69 149]

Aeromotive do a nice in tank kit. Phantom stealth 200 or 340. Shame about the price. I do like the idea of a return line back to tank .Should put less stress on the pump . I see the the FiTech command centre doesn't have a return line . Just a vent line that needs to go back to the tank anyway.

[Jefhuf 13]

The Aeromotive does look like a nice bit of kit but as you mentioned the price is almost prohibitive.  For the cost of the Phantom 340 kit you can just about buy a whole new EFI tank and pump from Tanks Inc (or similar).

 

Bryon, I assume the hoses in the Holley install were PTFE hoses...some companies like Earls and do a black nylon/kevlar cover instead of the stainless steel.  For those who have done the install, what size/brand hoses did you go with?

[Mach1 Driver 560]

From all the research I have done Tanks Inc seems to be the best option, 

I agree, it seems like a good option. Their pump mounting plate has fittings for the supply, return, and a vent. They sell a remote rollover vent valve as well. As you know our cars currently vent out the fill cap. I remember watching the end of an episode of Bitchin Rides where the customer nailed the throttle and a wave of gas spewed out the back of his 69. If we vented the tank we could go with non-vented caps, and maybe add a modification to the fill pipe so it doesn't vomit gas all over when filling.

The only down side I see is that the Tanks Inc. tank has the sending unit and pump mounted on the top middle, so the supply, return, and vent lines will be on the floor of our spacious trunk, along with the spare tire and everything else. We will need to add a removable plate to protect them and run the lines through the floor. No biggie.

The GPA-4 pump will deliver 255 LPH for up to 630 HP which is more than enough for me... and what I'm planning.

While I'm thinking about it, we won't be needing the mechanical fuel pump and can get "block off plates" from Sumit and other vendors, although it appears they don't come with gaskets or chrome bolts. 

[ronz75 10]

So is the current hard fuel line okay to use as the supply? Seems everywhere I read people route new lines, and most are braid lines of some type. Why is this? I drive my car pretty regularly so I feel the current hard line is a better option and am considering bending a new one for the return. Am I over thinking things?

[Mach1 Driver 560]

So is the current hard fuel line okay to use as the supply? Seems everywhere I read people route new lines, and most are braid lines of some type. Why is this? I drive my car pretty regularly so I feel the current hard line is a better option and am considering bending a new one for the return. Am I over thinking things?

I intend to keep the old metal line but flush it out unless someone convinces me otherwise- and use high pressure hose sparingly where needed. I don't know about a braided line- seems it could droop between the tie-up points and has a long way to run. 

[1969_Mach1 333]

Regarding the inertia switch, its a safety item and a good idea on a street car.  If you get in an accident its best for the fuel supply to shut off.  The inertial switch ensures the fuel will shut off.  Every OEM EFI car has an inertia switch.

[prayers1 153]

Make sure your fittings are good and tested if your using the metal fuel supply line. The FiTech TBI (IIRC) has 58 pounds of constant pressure.

 

I'll be using #8 PTFE lines for supply and return.

[Mach1 Driver 560]

Here's a link to an inertia switch - also known as a rollover switch. It shows you what it is and instructions to install it: http://www.jegs.com/i/Painless+Performance+Products/764/80160/10002/-1

[ronz75 10]

Good points on ensuring my fuel line is in good order. Although it's worked well over the past 6 years, the pressure from my mechanical pump is much lower. I may have to do more thinking on that one.

[Stangboy 14]

An inertia switch out of a 90's Mustsng will work also. Plus it's cheaper.

[rwcstang 201]

69 fuel sender units are available with an inbuilt return fitting or you could modify yours to run the return line. I've used electric pumps on other cars in carbureted systems and they were noisy but you got used to it. That was 15+ years ago so who knows what they are like now.

still noisy, but my cam covers it up the sound. 

[ronz75 10]

I have been reading about using the inertia switch from a 90's mustang, that's what I'm planning. Does it serve as a roll over switch also?

[Mach1 Driver 560]

I've been researching a couple of items:

Timing control:

1. If you are not running boost or nitrous Fitech says the stock points distributor works very well with no need to use timing control.

2. With boost or nitrous you need to use timing control. They suggest an MSD Probillet 2 wire distributor with magnetic pickup. For half the price get a TSP distributor but use a phasable rotor from MSD #84211. You need to disable any advance and let the EFI control it.

 

Pump Type:

In tank pump:

Less likely to run out of fuel from car's movement

Quieter

Probably need a new tank

Probably most costly (with a new tank) $490 before hose and fittings

Easily vented (we need this)

Fittings on pump (tanksinc)- supply, return, vent

 

In-line pump

Probably the cheapest option

Noisy

May need surge tank to assure fuel is available (read www.rowand.net/Shop/Tech/EFIBasics.htm)

 

Command Center

Shortest run of high pressure hose (assuming it is positioned in the front of the vehicle)

Around $400 before discount

Where to put it? Without moving the battery or windshield washer bottle about the only place to put it is in the wheel well and then for safety it should be covered/protected. In a front end crash this could provide a rather large reservoir of fuel.

 

Return line:

All of the above require a line back to the tank

1. The Tanksinc in tank pump already has fittings for supply, return and vent. They are positioned on top of the tank so a suitable cover will have to be fashioned to protect these lines and they will have to go out through the floor in front of the tank into the area around the differential. Don't forget to seal it up.

2. The In-line pump and Command Center both require you to get a gauge sender unit with a vent provision; or add a return connection to the tank; or you can use a Moroso #65385 that goes below the filler neck and allows fuel to drain down into the tank. I'm fairly certain you would need to cut off the bottom of the filler neck and loose the ridge around the bottom that helps to seal it. This also puts an exposed hose with fuel in the trunk that should also be covered. This isn't a place you want fumes to collect.

 

Fuel lines:

1. Russell Twist Lok hose- what most FiTech customers use. It does not have an external braid. The sizes are -6AN and -8AN, with -6 being 3/8†and -8 is 1/2â€. AN stands for Army/Navy which standardized these fittings around WWII. Maybe thats why they are so freeking expensive- the government got involved! This hose pushes over barbs in AN fittings and by most accounts is difficult to install. You have to put the fitting in a vice, lube the hose/fitting (some even use a heat gun) and then twist the hose onto the fitting to lock it in place. Theres a funny video showing how one guy does this:

2. The hot tip is double braided stainless hose. It looks good and is expen$ive. I like it because the hose is trapped between the internal barb as above and an external screw-on cover and isn't nearly as hard to install. You just use a wrench to screw on the external cover, and you don't have to womp it with a big stick.

 

Fittings:

So far I've only researched my option (see below) using Russel Twist Lok un-braided hose. I intend to research the use of double stainless steel braided as time permits and intend to report my findings.

1. Using Russel Twist Lok hose and fittings from Tanksinc:

A. To pump GPA-4 supply fitting: 660443 ¼ NPT

B. To 660443: 624013 Straight* -6AN Twist Lok fitting. This goes to -6AN hose

C. 6AN hose from pump to filter

Note: D-H edited on 12/24/15 1:25 pm

D. To hose at filter: 624013 Straight* -6AN Twist Lok fitting

E. 624013 screws on filter inlet.

F: Filter Fitech 80112

G: 624013 screws on filter outlet.

H. 624013 Straight* -6AN Twist Lok fitting: This goes to -6AN hose.

I. 6AN hose from filter to EFI

J. The FiTech EFI already has -6AN inlet and outlet fittings installed on the throttle body for Russel Twist Lok hose. If you wish to use braided hose these fittings must change.

K. 6AN hose from the throttle body outlet (return) to tank.

L. 6AN hose to 624013 Straight* -6AN Twist Lok fitting

M. 624013 to: 660443 ¼ NPT

N. 660443 to pump inlet/return.

O. To Pump barbed Vent fitting: the size is not specified but I assume it is 5/16†since the Remote Mount Rollover Vent Valve definitely states it is 5/16â€. Use low pressure neoprene 5/16†fuel hose and hose clamps. Edit on 12/28/15 Tanks Inc confirms the barbed vent fitting is 5/16"

 

*Straight fittings may be replaced with 90 degree 624163 or 45 degree 624083

Disclaimer: all of the above part numbers are to the best of my ability and have been checked over the phone by tanksinc. If they are wrong you accept all responsibility, so don't cry to me.

 

My preference:

Since I'm getting rust from my tank (gee and after only 46 years), I intend to replace the tank anyway, making the “in tank pump†my best (and cheapest) option. As is illustrated above I'm looking at a Tanksinc.com tank with GPA-4 pump. The pump has connections for supply, return, and a vent. I'll add a rollover tank vent (same vendor) up above the differential, then use a fuel cap that will seal the filler neck.

[prayers1 153]

Mach1 Driver- Great write up and easy to read. You really did your homework! I also wondered what AN meant.

We all can benefit from each others EFI install.

 

I was thinking of venting to the metal fill tube, this way if there is back flow it will go back into the tank.  I've read on Rays FiTech install that he has experienced that same back flow, but his tube goes outside by the wheel well.

 

Have you looked into the Aeromotive's Fuel Tank with the internal pump.  I see that it only fits up to 1968.  Do you think that tank will fit a 1969?

 

Whats the difference between the double braided stainless hose and PTFE lines for supply and return? Which do you prefer?

 

Will you be posting pictures of parts and of the install?

 

Looking forward to your next write up.
GREAT JOB!

[ray1970 88]

-

[Mach1 Driver 560]

I was thinking of venting to the metal fill tube, this way if there is back flow it will go back into the tank.  I've read on Rays FiTech install that he has experienced that same back flow, but his tube goes outside by the wheel well.

 

Have you looked into the Aeromotive's Fuel Tank with the internal pump.  I see that it only fits up to 1968.  Do you think that tank will fit a 1969?

 

Whats the difference between the double braided stainless hose and PTFE lines for supply and return? Which do you prefer?

 

Will you be posting pictures of parts and of the install?

 

Prayers1, thanks for the kudos

When you say "venting to the metal fill tube" I assume you mean running the return line to the fill tube. That is doable using the Moroso part detailed above. Our tanks only truly vent to air through the fill cap. I will vent to air through the roll over vent and use a sealed filler cap.

If Aeromotive says their tank will only fit up to 68 then you better believe it. 69/70s are quite a bit different than their predecessors.

I like PTFE hose and will probably use it but you should keep in mind that it can not be used in a NHRA event. I will attach an article that gives all the pros and cons.

I intend to eventually post pictures of my build, but it may be a while. I moved to Atlanta and one of our kids followed shortly after. They moved into our basement until they can get jobs/housing and we are glad to have them. Their stuff is occupying a substantial part of my garage and will prevent me from installing my new Maxjax that is on the way (woohoo). Aw well, eventually the kids will leave the nest again and I can get on with my cars. 

 

Unfortunately I'm not allowed to use the image extension I hoped to import here so you can see a further explanation of AN hose and fittings in the attachment

 

AN Hose and Fittings.doc