AOD vs 4r70w

[LiLMike 42]

I have been reading a lot about these popular upgrades. Not sure which way to go. Most of my questions are with the conversion itself. I understand the pros and cons of the transmissions themselves but there is a big difference on how they are installed and header fitment. I would like to run long tube headers. Maybe there are some advantages in operation that I do not know about. Just confused on which way to go and thought I would solicit some input from you guys. Cost is always a factor, not so much the price of the tranny but the cost and availability of everything else to complete this upgrade. I want to keep my original shifter

 

Thanks

Mike 

[GypsyR 32]

The basic design and outside dimensions of AOD's, AODE's, and 4R70W's are all but identical, I can't imagine how installation and header fitment would vary. Maybe you are thinking of AOD/AODE's versus C4's or FMX's or something? 

Though a 4R70W is the new and improved version but you have the extra expense of computer controls to pay for. AOD's are very sensitive to the setup of their TV cables but are tougher than often given credit for. I like an AOD for the simplicity and lower price. Truth be told I currently have one of each in service right now and like them both fine.  (But my '69 is getting a five speed.)

[LiLMike 42]

I was under the impression that the 4r70w was somewhat larger. I read somewhere that some tabs had to be cut off to get the headers to fit. I know with the 4r70w there is the problem of placement of the overdrive switch along with the location of the controller.  I have the electric fan controller under the console so where could I position the overdrive controller? I don't want to lose my console compartment nor my glove box. I don't think I have any room under the dash with my A/C setup. I could put it in the trunk next to my amp. How difficult is it to set up the TV cable on the AOD and does it ever need adjusting?

[det0326 179]

I think the only difference between the AOD and 4R is the 4R has a longer or thicker converter which pushes the tranny back a little farther by an inch or so I think but don't know if it would cause header fitment issues or not. The guy to ask is MikeStang he has the 4R in his and also had the issue with the tabs you are speaking of. 

 

Dave

[1969_Mach1 333]

Dealing a little with them in late model Mustangs I believe the 4R70W is a stronger transmission.  If you're buying a used trans to rebuild get one from a GT car as they had a few internal differences for increased strength.  Plus, as the years progress Ford makes changes to fix transmission issues.  I.E. older = more design problems than newer.

[det0326 179]

Yes 1969_Mach1 you are correct the 4r is stronger with the wide gear set too. I am building an AOD now with 4R internals. Just because I didn't want to fool with the electronic controller. The differences I was speaking of in my prior post was only in physical size.

 

Dave

[LiLMike 42]

Sounds as if the 4r is a better tranny as for performance and both have their respective quirks on installing in a 69 Mach1. I checked out the Bauman controller and it’s rather compact. I would need their throttle position sensor. Is there a parts list for all I would need to go with the 4r? Where would I get any parts? I know I have to pick up a tranny. Here are my thoughts:

 

Tranny – Easily found

Cross Member – Have no clue

Controller – Bauman

 

Surly I would need more than these 3 things?

[det0326 179]

Sounds as if the 4r is a better tranny as for performance and both have their respective quirks on installing in a 69 Mach1. I checked out the Bauman controller and it’s rather compact. I would need their throttle position sensor. Is there a parts list for all I would need to go with the 4r? Where would I get any parts? I know I have to pick up a tranny. Here are my thoughts:

 

Tranny – Easily found

Cross Member – Have no clue

Controller – Bauman

 

Surly I would need more than these 3 things?

I made my own crossmember for my AOD when I was mocking everything up. It actuall sets rearward a little more than the C4 and the 4R sets back even a little farther than the AOD .  Give MikeStang a PM i.m sure he would clue you in on the 4R with the Bauman controller because that is what he has.  For what else you would need for sure you would have to modify your drive shaft . Depending on what the 4R came out of you may need to turn the manual shiftier arm on the side 180 degrees which requires taking the pan off and disassemble the linkage.  Also depending on the tranny you have now you may need a new yoke for the drive shaft. Some of the earlier 4R I think had the smaller dia. yoke and the later ones had a bigger dia. yoke. 

 

Dave

[LiLMike 42]

Thanks Dave. I'll keep that in mind.

[LiLMike 42]

As I am checking on a couple of other things and waiting for Mikestang to get back to me, I read that a transmission cooler is recommended for the 4r70w conversion. Anybody know why that is? Seems to me that the lines going to the radiator would be sufficient.  Am I missing something?

[danno 128]

Keep the yoke thing in mind.  A AOD is longer than a C4, it requires the yoke that came with the AOD, but it fits right to a 69 U joint.  If the 4R70 is longer, I am not sure what you would do for the yoke or driveshaft. BTW, I have long tube headers on my AOD with no problem.

[MikeStang 247]

Okay quick down and dirty.

 

1. The 4R is a bit stronger than the AOD altho the AOD can take a beating the 4R is just better in terms of strength.

 

2. The Ears I was discussing are the casting ears at the REAR on top of the transmission and they need to be cut off so they don't hit the floor crossmember support and bust the case like I did mine haha...

 

3. From what I gather the 4R and c6 cases are about the same width in the front part so headers that fit a c6 should fit a 4R altho I ordered my headers from Ford Powertrain Applications (FPA)

 

4. The 4R IS Longer than the c4 & C6 but not sure on the AOD length differences... Regardless you will likely have to have your drive shaft made about 1/2 to 3/4" shorter and rebalanced.

 

5. Transmissions from 1997 and Up are The Best of the bunch and one of the main things that makes them so is the Mechanical Diode Upgrade which has better holding power... Altho some 1997 models came equipped with this upgrade already... My 1997 has it.

I would venture to say if you got a low mileage 4R from Any 1997 and up V8 Application it would live just fine behind a stock to lightly modified 351 with nothing more than a J-Body mod and a trans cooler.

Most of the vehicles that had 4R's had the internal radiator trans cooler PLUS and extra cooler.... If you are hitting the junk yard for a transmission, may as well pull the Ford Plate cooler off the same vehicle... I suggest finding a 97 and up truck with a 302 or 351w as a donor vehicle.... Altho

Now the earlier 4R's were not bad units compared to the 97 and up units, and depending on your power level the 97 and back units would probably be okay with just a J-Body mod and a good rebuild with good parts, and a mechanical diode upgrade is like 100 bucks.

 

6. Keep in mind if the bell housing has 3 bolt holes where the starter goes it WILKL NOT WORK on a regular V8 Push Rod motor... You need a 4R with 2 Bolt holes where the starter goes.

 

7. Now the 4R can have a few different tail shaft housings, and they are.... Short with small bushing and long with small bushing & Short and long with large bushing.... The small bushing tail shaft housing will allow you to use your c4 Yolk with the transmission, but if you get one with a large bushing then you will need an Actual 4R Yolk.... The length of the tail shaft really only affects your driveshaft length, and you can have a custom drive shaft built for under 400 bucks.

 

8. The Bauman computer is the way to go, its about 4" long and 5" tall and 1" thick... I cut a hole in the back of my glove box liner and slipped mine in there so I could have the passenger open it and make adjustments... Hell I have opened it and adjusted it at a stop light a few times.

Their controller allows you to either have an OD button OR you can just have it lock the converter in at a certain MPH like I do.

I didn't want an OD cancellation switch because if I'm racing I probably wont push the car past 4th gear anyhow so who cares if I can push a button to lock out the converter OD... and besides you can just set the computer to not lock the converter till say 120 mph and unless you hit 120 it will never go into OD... I have done this a few times on the weekends just because I knew I was going to do stupid stuff. So no worries about having an OD cancellation switch... I generally have mine set up at 75MPH lock up so when I hit the interstate and push it to 75 it locks the converter and RPM's drop to 2100 and im rolling a constant 75-90 or however fast I wanna go.

And don't worry about down shifts, if your doing 80 mph and the converter is locked and you put the hammer down, the computer unlocks the converter and the transmission will drop to 3rd and away you go till it reaches the set WOT RPM shift selected for 4th gear.

 

9. Joe Persad Sales the crossmember as well as a linkage to use a stock shifter... I use a B&M Hammer Shifter myself, and it allows you to manually shift from 1st to 2nd and 2nd to 3rd, then the computer takes the 3rd to 4th shift and if your at WOT I have mine set to shift at 5500.... Its honestly more consistent to let the computer do the shifting for you, but banging the gears with the ratchet shifter is fun.

 

10. Flexplates.... Okay if your running a 351 like I am you will need a 28oz flexplate with a 164 tooth ring gear on it, UNLESS your motor is balanced to 50oz or is neutrally balanced, and if so you can get flexplates like this also... But if you got a 28oz balancer on the crankshaft you will need a 28oz flexplate...Autozone carries a Pioneer unit that will work but is not SFI Approved.

 

11. Torque converters.... I have 2 good Stock units you can have if you want for the cost of shipping LOL... The stock converter will flash to about 2800 RPM's and works great, but its not built strong enough to couple well on the big end if your motor is making some power... My motor made 550hp at the flywheel and really starts making a ton of power around 3000 RPM's and plays out around 6200.

If you order an aftermarket converter you will likely have to dill the 4 bolt holes in the flex plate out to 15/32" in order to get the bolts in since the aftermarket converters generally come with bigger heavier duty bolts.

I would say for a mildly modified 351 and a Stock converter would do just fine... My new 10" PTC converter I ordered was supposed to be a 2800 but when I flat foot it the thing flashes to 3500 and is totally violent, not to mention it doesn't actually start moving the car very well till it hits 1500 RPM's which I don't like... "Should have ordered a Continental Converter and been done" but I tried PTC and now I have to pull the converter back out and send it to them and wait a week for them to tighten it up more.

 

12. Driveshaft length... If you had a C4 your stock shaft MAY fit as long as the yolk will slide into the transmission and you have 1/2-3/8" to slide the shaft back and into the rear end yolk, but if if you have to squeeze and fight the rear u-joint into the rear end yolk, then you will need to shorten your shaft, because as the suspension travels up and down the front yolk slides in and out of the rear tailshaft of the transmission and it needs room to move, and if it cant then bad shit happens.

I have a stock shaft that has been shortened to the correct length you can have for the cost of shipping but it will need to be balanced which costs 70 bucks. It has a c4 Yolk on it

 

13. IMPORTANT SHOULD HAVE BEEN WITH THE TRANSMISSION SELECTION....Remember when you pull the transmission you MUST get the little metal plate that goes between the engine block and the transmission...this little guy is the spacer that keeps you from pulling the transmission in to close to the converter and putting it in a bind and burning up the front pump...ALSO with out this plate the starter will almost certainly hang up in the flexplate ring gear when you start the car and it may not disengage... So it serves 2 purposes so DONT FORGET TO GET IT.

 

Im sure there is more but if you have questions call me, I sent ya my number

[sixt9stang 36]

Subscribed.

[Mach1 Driver 560]

Thanks MikeStang, that's a really great write-up that will help immensely

[Mach1 Driver 560]

Keep the yoke thing in mind.  A AOD is longer than a C4, it requires the yoke that came with the AOD, but it fits right to a 69 U joint.  If the 4R70 is longer, I am not sure what you would do for the yoke or driveshaft. BTW, I have long tube headers on my AOD with no problem.

Hi Danno, could you tell us what headers and engine you have? MikeStang used FPA.

[MikeStang 247]

UPdate.

I ended up having to enlarge the holes in my Flex plate to 1/2" in order to get my new larger bolts through plate... Should have her up and going again this evening hopefully

[bryonbush 85]

thought I'd jump in on this as well. I made the switch in march. I had the C4 and got a yoke from the trans shop. I kept the stock shaft and so far no issues. I made my own trans mount but to be honest, I was off on my measurements and my driveline angle is a little off. I kept my stock shifter but the gear positions are just a little off. I made a shift linkage out of a small tie rod end and cleavis end with threaded rod in the middle. This keeps the action nice and smooth, but your shift rod wont slip connecting to the rod in the car.

 

One I made a youtube video showing the tuning of the controller. Search Baumann Controller and it should pop up. Im happy with it but every once and a while ill get a hard shift. I changed the shift setting which helped, but still happens every so often. Baumann said that if it's happening, to run the ground and hot wires directly to the battery to ensure a good connection. I haven't done it yet, just throwing it out there.

 

forgot to add: I have a 351W. I ran doug Try-Y's and had no issue with clearance around the bell housing.

[MikeStang 247]

I had really hard 1-2 Shifts at 1st, till I lowered the speed at which the shift was made from 1-2 and that fixed mine.

I ran my hot and ground right to the battery as stated in their directions.

I need to raise my trans a bit myself, it seems the mount I have is a bit lower than it should be and Shimming will only get me so far.