Shelby Quick Steer on a 69?

[SA69mach 39]

I understand the Shelby Quick Steer was designed and installed on the early pre-67 Mustangs.

I understand the early cars had the 1 inch sector shaft, and the 69/70 have the 1 1/8th inch sector shaft.

I understand the Shelby Quick Steer parts are designed to fit on the 1 inch sector shaft.

 

I have been searching forums and looking for information to improve my steering rate, and retain the factory power steering, and box on my Mach1.

 

I have spoken with Dan from ChockoStang and he said there is just no available worm gear available to speed up the internal ratio on the Ford steering box.  I am sure mine has 16:1.  I find this steering rate to be a little too slow, especially with the 15 inch steering wheel.

 

What I want is to retain the original features and look of this car, but improve the rate by a moderate margin.  14:1 or 13:1 would be perfect for this car.

 

I have installed R&P on other cars and don't want to do this.  I do not want to use the Borgeson box except as last resort, as I want the original power steering ram set up.  I want this car to look factory original.

 

I wonder if there is a company producing a suitable worm gear that would replace the 16;1 currently in there?

I wonder if the Shelby arm could work on a 69 with PS and AC, if built for the larger sector shafts?

 

Sorry for the long post, I don't really want this post to drift off into "other options" from the outset.  I figure I am not aware of every aspect of the issue, such as space and clearance issues, and there are probably some less well-known racing and engineering firms out there that may have solutions to the two questions:

 

1. Quick ratio worm gear

2. Shelby Quick steer for 69 Mustang

 

Thanks in advance

[JayEstes 172]

That's a genius idea, assuming you can find the parts.  No idea where you might find something made to this spec.  I love this site: http://www.mcmaster.com/#worm-gears/=wkfjlf, but I kinda doubt from the get-go that you can find the exact piece you need off the shelf, unless someone has done it for this purpose. 

 

I know some machine shops that can custom produce one if you can draw it / spec it for them, but this will cost several hundreds at the low-end I suspect.  it's the kind of a deal where if you could make more of them, they get cheaper, but now you're inventing a new product....

 

The guy who rebuilt my original steering system to like-new condition is Precision Products at http://www.stangerssite.com

This guy has been doing these systems back to stock for a loooong time.  And has a ton of knowledge. 210-687-1313

If you can get him on the phone, he might be able to tell you if there is anything out there.  I'd call about 9am during the week.  If he's busy he might not pickup and he is not great about calling you back.  Seems to work at a slow pace and is not in a hurry.  He's in san antonio.

 

Don't know if that helps, but hope its something...

[SA69mach 39]

Thanks JayEstes. I am interested in learning a lot more about the whole system, and any reasonable options.

I have read a ton of posts, researched the best I could over the last few months. and there may not be an easy solution to this question.

 

There is usually a fair bit of 'opposition' to anything new. It just sucks that Ford has such limited options for upgrades and internal mods available.

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[JayEstes 172]

For what it's worth, I would consider anything that improves the steering rate.  It is quite "turny", and I would like a faster gear.

If you find something, or have other ideas, please post.  I love the idea of keeping it looking stock, but having better capabilties "on the inside".

[SA69mach 39]

You should check this site when you have time.  A lot of very good information here. 

http://www.stangerssite.com/steeringsysteminfo.html

 

The best possible solution is a new combination of input shaft worm gear, rack block, and/or  the sector shaft teeth.  Some minor alterations of sizes and ratios would allow any number of different steering 'speeds'

 

I think a good machinist could create a new set of teeth on the rack block and the sector shaft to provide whatever ratio one would want..  without changing anything else on the system, linkages or power steering parts.  Wouldn't that be great - send it in for a rebuild and a ratio change.

[SA69mach 39]

After taking a look at the set up more closely, it seems the arrangement between the rack block and the sector shaft teeth is set, and nothing is gained by altering the teeth.  The speed of rotation of the sector shaft will not be altered by this method.  You would have to move the entire sector shaft to alter the rate of 'spin'

 

The best and most efficient way is to alter the twist rate of the worm gear.  The most complicated part to machine, of course.

It has a matching ball race machined or cast into the rack block internally, so that is two complex parts to alter. 

 

I guess since it has not been addressed by now, it never will be........  Ford used this part as a 16;1 ratio from the early 60's through the mid 80's.

[JayEstes 172]

That guys site is amazing - I've been all over that stuff in the past.  In the end, I had a whole car to do, so I sent him my steering to rebuild.  It came out perfect, but took him like 6 months to get it back to me - the delays made me kinda crazy.

 

Have you ever thought about adapting where the tie-rods attach to the spindle?  It would have to have some kind of tie-rod spindle adapter, so that the tie-rod attaches closer to the spindle center.  Idk how much would be required.  You would get more degrees of turn with the same steering setup, but the downside might be loads on the steering system - I would expect the push pull forces to be larger due to the shortened moment arm.  But what if you adapted it so that the tie-rod attached inboard and forward a little, so that the effective moment arm of the steering system is reduced by something like an inch?  Think that might work?

[lanky 44]

I am surprised nobody has mentioned the bump steer kits that relocate the tie rods to a shorter point on the spindle, thus quickening the steering ratio slightly. I plan to go to this setup at a later date, since my baer tracker kit is ok for now.

[SA69mach 39]

Both good ideas, something I have considered. I am interested in a solution that does not visibly alter the oem set up.

The Shelby quick steer for the 65-66 cars uses pitman arms and idler arms that are 1 inch longer. thus altering the steering speed, but I think there is a space issue with the 69/70 cars, which makes it difficult to achieve. Plus those kits are made for 1 inch sector shafts, and our 69/70 cars have the 1 1/8th sector shaft diameter.

 

I do like the idea of moving the tie rod pivot 'inboard' on the spindle. I will research that.

[SA69mach 39]

I am surprised nobody has mentioned the bump steer kits that relocate the tie rods to a shorter point on the spindle, thus quickening the steering ratio slightly. I plan to go to this setup at a later date, since my baer tracker kit is ok for now.

Do you have a link to this bump steer kit. I looked at the Baer and other kits briefly, and they all seem to locate the tie rod to the spindle at the same location on the spindle - the stock location. I am curious to see a kit that will indeed locate the pivot point further inboard on the spindle. Great idea.

[lanky 44]

Promotorports makes a kit, many others do as well.

[SA69mach 39]

OK, found this

http://www.drgas.com/Ford-Bump-Steer-Corrector-Kit_p_19.html

 

Looks like it will reduce steering wheel turn by 1/2 turn with a 1 inch relocation. States must install the negative wedge kit with this kit.

 

Anyone have this kit installed?

[Rsanter 152]

I was thinking about doing exactly what you are talking about on my 69 but went a different direction.

 

The 1" shaft was used for the 64-67 cars. If you can find a later 67 with the two piece column or the steering box for a 67 that use a tilt column then all you have to do is put that directly into your car and use the shelby quick steer kit.

The there is the issue that the drag link is different and will not work with the early Adler arm so you then need to go to the steering components from the 64-66 cars. The frame is the same width so there is no problem with this.

What I was going to do was go with the full manual system and install an electric power steering assist.

Then I was also thinking that if I stuck with the original type power steering that I could just use a 69 idler arm and modify the length ( I am a good welder so I was not bothered by this)

 

I also thought about a couple of other routes.....

Take the shelby Pittman arm and bore out the big hole ( I have a mill and lathe so no prob) then take the original pitman arm and cut the big hole off the arm and turn it round. Install press fit into the Shelby arm, drill and pin the insert and then run a weld bead. There would be enough weld bead that I was secure that it could not come apart or fracture.

 

Yes it can be done, yes it will be a lot of work.

If you want to talk on the phone just message me for my number and we can chat about options. I would be willing to help just to see it done as I had the idea on mine but didn't do it

 

Bob

[SA69mach 39]

Good post Rsanter, lots to consider in all that......

 

My goal at present is to gather knowledge and ideas on the least 'invasive way to moderately improve the steering rate on the 69/70 cars with power steering.  I guess the 'feel' of the Ford power steering has got its problems too, but I have had a few versions of that steering system and none were fully satisfying.

 

I had a 70 coupe with manual steering.  After rebuilding it to stock specs it was a great driving car, but terrible at low speed and parking.  Really great at one thing, terrible at the other.  That car would be perfect with some electric assist at speeds below 35-40 mph, and zero assist at speeds above that.  I think that is a possibility with some simple electronic components and an EPAS system installed.

 

I converted that coupe to rack and pinion and it really is good.  The RRS rack is simple, strong, and I used a stock Ford 70 PS pump, bracket and belt to power it.  I gave that car to my dad, but I drive it now and again.

 

Driving my 69 Mach1 is a disappointment in comparison, and it does annoy me that there are no solutions that are;

Easy

Cheap

Simple

Leaves the car in stock configuration.

 

Cutting and welding cast iron steering parts is not something I am comfortable doing.  To me, steering parts are more important than brakes for safety. I don't want to alter geometry without serious engineering consultation.

 

I keep coming back to the internal parts of the Ford steering box.  The 16:1 ratio is controlled by the worm drive gear and the corresponding internal gear of the rack block.  That is the key part (s) that needs an upgrade.  I wonder how many companies have the skill and engineering ability to re-create those parts in a faster ratio?

 

Yep, it is a complex pair of parts, but hey, built and installed for many decades, it cannot be impossible.  Someone must still be making these parts for spares and repairs.  I think that is where this is heading for me.  Detroit must have some engineering firms that can do this work.

 

Perhaps some other vehicle companies  used the Ford/Saginaw box under licence, maybe with faster ratios.?  I did ask Dan from Chockostang about the possibility of upgrading to a faster ratio internally but he told me "No, nothing like that for those boxes"  I tend to believe him, but want to put the feelers out, and ask you all to give it some thought if you would.  I don't know enough about this myself.

 

keep the ideas coming..

[Rsanter 152]

The steering component I was referring to welding are not cast but rather forged steel. The parts are simple enough that they can be made from billet material or fabricated from scratch if you prefer.

 

The 70s corvettes used a similar steering system but I am not sure what you could use from that system

 

Bob

[SA69mach 39]

I had a look at the C3 Corvettes, and they used the same box as the Mustang, however, they had a box ratio of 17;1, which is a slower ratio box than our current 16:1.  Steering geometry gives different final steering ratio, so I guess it evens out.  (I have a C3 with stock PS and it is quite a bit better/faster than the Mach1)  Ecklers offer a complete rebuild kit, including the worm gear, rack block etc, but claim it has the "quick ratio 16:1"   So I guess they are using the Ford internals - which has to make you laugh really.

 

I looked at CPP, here

http://www.classicperform.com/Series400/400SeriesPowerSteeringBoxes.htm

 

They offer a fast ratio 13.6:1 box.  It is a fully integrated power box, eliminating the stock Ford power valve, ram and hoses.  Not a bad option, but it will not look stock. The website does not show a complete kit for a 69/70, only the 65-67, but I cannot see major problems getting it to work on the 69/70.  They seem to require a new pitman arm to be fitted.

 

Still looking and gathering info.  Thank you for the generous offer of welding and work on this project.  I am not sure where this is leading yet, I am sure I am not the first to try to solve this issue.

Maybe a 14 inch steering wheel and the 'Bump steer kit' will quicken things up enough to make things feel right....

[shaun071 62]

Just thinking out loud but i wonder whether the worm gear etc from an Aussie Falcon power steering box would fit? They are an integral box, use a 1 1/8 pitman arm and have a fast 13.6:1 ratio. Obviously the box itself wont fit as its RHD, but the internals might. Like you I'm not happy with the steering ratio in my coupe, having got used to the quicker ratio on my previous Falcons.

[SA69mach 39]

I guess the only way for us non-engineers is to take apart an aussie box and measure and maybe compare side by side. 

?The rack block has a ball race on TOP of the block, and that would mean the race would be upside down in a LHD box.  That may be easy enough to fix with some correct holes drilled in the rack block on one side and a blanking plate over the existing holes, , using the aussie rack block and worm gear in a LHD box.

 

Good idea......not much machining involved......

 

Do you have a box on hand?  If not I have a friend in Adelaide who converted my Dads 70 coupe to RHD.  He still has the LHD box from that car in his workshop.  He is capable of getting an aussie box and disassembling them both.  Maybe this is feasible.  It would be a nice gift to the US market if the aussie box worm gears and rack blocks will enable a quick steer conversion.

 

Let me send some emails.  I am in Michigan for the next couple months.  This could be interesting Shaun071.  Do you want to be involved in the project?

 

Perhaps one of the Mustang experts like Dan from Chockostang would be interested to receive an aussie box and take a look at it too. 

[Rsanter 152]

I installed a CPP setup into my 69 conv. As far as I know I am the first one to have done it as not even CPP has done it.

I spoke with them at SEMA and they hinted that there were some interference problems and that they would work with me if I wanted to try the install.

The front of the box hits the Back of the shock tower. This required that I dent the shock tower by about 1/4 inch. This was not a problem and will not be seen once installed however if you have the big block towers that will be a problem. You could mark it carefully and use a hole saw to relieve the area and that would make it very fixable in the future, but you have to be willing to do that.

 

The internals of the box are GM so they require a special pitman arm because it looks like a mustang arm but has a GM spline in the big end.

There are several ways to go at this swap when it comes to the linkage. The easiest way was to use the manual steering conversion part on the end where the control valve used to be on the drag link. Then you can keep everything else in the system stock. My parts were all in excellent shape so this encouraged me to go that way.

Power steering pumps...

They want you to use a GM power steering pump which to me looks like crap....not going to do that.

I used the original ford pump, rebuilt it myself. However I have had some problems. It is not as powered at idle as I would have expected. There are two factors to a power steering pump. Pressure and flow volume. The pressure is easy as you can shim the relief valve in the pump and you can install a slightly smaller pully to help at idle.

The smaller pully will also help with flow volume at idle if that is a problem. I still need to play with it but it does not work bad at all.

I had to make my own power steering lines. I am used to bending hard line so I bent the up to go down and along the oil pan and then over toward the pump. You cannot use regular braided steel lines you have to use the high pressure FRAGOLA lines and fittings.

If you do it the way I did it you will have problems with clutch linkage clearance. I have an auto so don't care. CPP routes their lines up and over between the valve cover and the tower which I hate....totally Chevy way to do it....I refuse

On the good side I have had no trouble with the return to center, I did not add any caster to the car.

For looks most people don't even seem to know I dont have the original system in there. Even at the mustang show in Vegas I had to point it out to people, they did not spot it.

I did have a problem with the first steering box, it worked but had too much play it it. They had me adjust it which took several turns which make much better. Great but I insisted that I want a new one that I know was tested and factory adjusted. They did not argue with me, they sent a return label and sent me a new box. New box was fine first run.

 

If you want to do that swap I can talk you though all the details, just let me know

 

Bob

[SA69mach 39]

Cool.  How does the steering feel with the CPP box?

 

I am considering this actual box and conversion, but would like to keep the car original, if possible.  This is a very nice option though...

I re-read your post and description of the Shelby pitman arm alterations, and understand it better now.  You are proposing to cut out the big end spline and insert a 1 1/8th inch spline for a 69, and pin and weld the insert into position.  I agree this would be a decent option.

I will have to find out the exact length of the Shelby pitman arm and idler arm, and compare them to the length of the 69 arms.  All I know is that the Shelby arms are "1 inch longer than the stock 65 arms"

What I want to know is the comparison length of the 65 arms and the 69 arms.  If there is a variation between the stock 65 arm lengths, and the 69 stock arm lengths, that needs to be known, to see if the 65 Shelby quick steer arms will indeed be longer than the stock 69 arms.  I hope this makes sense..... 

 

Also the clearance and interference issues with the Shelby arms on a 69.  When I rebuilt the steering and front end of my old 70, I cant recall how much free space there was, relative to pushing the centerlink forward by 1 inch.

 

Sometimes I overthink things, but steering is not something I want to mess up, especially on my 69 Mach1, as everything is original and works correctly.  I will be cautious with this car. 

 

I have some email traffic to follow up on with the aussie box internals.

 

In summary , so far there are 4 reasonable options to increase steering speed on the 69/70 Mustangs, with 16;1 PS,  and 1 option pending investigations

 

1. Smaller steering wheel -

2. Shelby Quick steering kit - 1 inch longer pitman arm and idler arm

3. ProMotorsport Bump Steer Kit which moves the spindle/tie rod pivot inboard by 1 inch

4. CPP fast ratio (13.6:1) GM box (internal power box)- Ford PS delete, new hoses

 

Possible faster ratio worm gear and rack block from aussie Ford boxes. Got a feeling the worm will be the opposite twist, and therefore unsuitable. There are some possibilities there, depending on the 'reversibility' of the rack block and some machining of the worm gear.

 

edit - did not add the thumbnails

[Rsanter 152]

I like the feel of the CPP box and I actually prefer the underpowered feel more than my dad does. Now this car is a cruzer much more than a hot rod or racer so I think it's also a matter of what you like and expect.

I am in visalia CA, I am not sure where you are but you are welcome to come drive the car if you find yourself in the area or at a show we take the car to.

 

In the Aussie steering box. You are right that it will be flipped but that is only in the case that it is in. As long as it will fit in the case you will rotate the sector 180 and flip the worm over and it should work....as long as it fits in the case.

One option is that I have a bunch of spare boxes. If you want we can try to fit the stuff in a spare box I have if you don't want to tear your box apart

 

Also

I have both the shelby pitman arm and standard arms so I can get measurements as well as pictures of both.

I have the Shelby stuff in my 66 and know there is lots of room, however I have manual steering so I don't know if there is room for the control valve if moved forward an inch. I have heard that the Shelby arms cannot be used with power steering and always wondered why but that may be the reason.

I will get some photos and measurements.

 

Another option...

The pitman arm from CPP is not forged but fabbed out of plate steel. You could always do a custom arm that is say 1/2" longer if that is all you can fit in there. It would be done similar to the way I say to convert the Shelby arm to the larger spline.

 

Yet another option....

If the steering ratios are the same between power steering boxes from 64-66 and the 69. And if the bearings are the same then all you would have to do is put the early sector into your box and then you will have a 69 Box with the smaller splines

 

Bob

[SA69mach 39]

Bit of a dead end with the Aussie Ford box.   Both the LHD box and the RHD box have the sector shaft 'inboard' side of the box.  On LHD cars the sector shaft is on the right side of the box, and a right hand turn requires the worm to drive the rack block DOWN.  In a RHD car, a right hand turn requires the worm to drive the rack block UP.

The thread of the worm is opposite.  The thread of the internal part of the rack block will also be opposite for LHD and RHD cars.  This is a major bummer.  On top of that, the parts for both boxes, and the internal spaces would need to be identical.  These are parts with a very tight tolerance for fit and function.  I have little hope the aussie box is internally identical, but am willing to be proven different.

 

I am in Michigan at the moment.  Long way from CA.  I would like to know the issues with fitting a longer set of pitman/idler arms with space and interference.  Maybe someone will chime in.

 

The inboard shifting Bump Steer kit is still a viable option, I guess, although it is kind of Frankenstein looking.  But you know what they say - "If it is stupid and it works it is not stupid"    That kit, plus a smaller wheel may be enough to make the improvement that I (and many other PS Mustang owners) want.

 

Getting kinda burned out trying to solve this without the experience to match the problem.  I am not keen on replacing 69 parts with less robust , early model parts.

 

The machined steel arms idea could be a go.  I guess that depends on the space and interference issues.

[shaun071 62]

Pity the Aussie box was a dead end. I did some research as well and the RHD power box is variable ratio with an hour glass shaped sector which would have complicated things. The CPP box may be a solution for me though, I'm not worried about originality.