New (to me) 69 Mach 1

[blueoval177 10]

Hello all, first timer here.

 

Got a 69 Mach 1 in good shape and I'm looking for some direction in improving it. I'm new to the classic car game here so forgive me.

 

It's a late run 69 build and for some reason has 351 cleveland in it with a C6 instead of a FMX. I'm looking to match up the engine components better as it was put together in the late 80's, with all of 5000 miles on it since then. Currently re-doing the interior but have questions about the engine.

 

The engine is bored .30 over (~357 ci?), 650 Holley double pump carb, clevite 77 brgs, Holley intake of some kind, TRW flat top pistons, ~9:1 compression, 2.5'' headers with (dynamax?) full exhaust, some sort of deep lobe cam, MSD electronic ignition, and 2v cast heads (original 4v's not in great shape)

 

Supposedly the carb, intake, and cam are not matched great. I got told TFS aluminum heads with a matching intake, carb, and cam would be a good bolt setup.

 

I would like to get a different carb, as apparently this stock one is not great, and maybe an intake to get it running better right now. I'm concerned that doing that with the idea of getting better heads down the road would be a waste of $$. Any help/direction would be great, thanks.

[mystangalang351 12]

2v heads are great for street use. You might want to keep them since you are not original with the motor anyway.

[barnett468 418]

you have a big cam already . we need the cam specs and need to know what you do and do not like about how it runs . . do you want bottom mid or top end power . you can only have one lol . . need rear gear ratio and size of header tubes .1 1/2 is too small . . too.

Edited November 2, 2014 by barnett468

[blueoval177 10]

Hey Thanks guys! I will try and look into the engine specs, it came to me through family. Here's the weird part about that engine. I got the Marti report on it and it's a late build '69 and has some original '70 interior parts in it. I also had someone at a show tell me that there is a possibility that this cleveland got shoved in instead of a windsor as the build says 351M only. Apparently they just had crates at the factory saying 351 4bbl not windsor or cleveland. I know that this engine has been in that car since 72. Would be fun to know for sure.

 

I'm concerned that my wife's '12 3.7 auto can take it right now. It has a locking rear end and rev's to the moon, about 3000 rpm at 60mph. I think 3.00 or 3.25? It's going to be a sunday driver, fairly stock look, not a drag racer at this point. Good streetable power would be the goal. Someone had told me the 2v heads limit it to 300hp or so, would like more than that.

[jmlay 80]

Are you referring to paperwork for the build of the engine, "I also had someone at a show tell me that there is a possibility that this cleveland got shoved in instead of a windsor as the build says 351M only."? The 351M was not produced until 74 or so.

[maxum96 32]

Not one documented case of a 351C being installed into a 1969 Mustang has been discovered. Lots of people claim they had an cousin's neighbor's mother's brother's little sister's uncle's 4th cousin's friend that had a 1969 Mustang with a factory installed 351C. Up until about the early mid 90's there wasn't much in the way of performance parts (specifically aftermarket aluminum heads) to make a 351W run. So if you wanted a hot Ford small block you dropped a 351C in. With the exception of the exhaust and a few other minor items, a 351C will bolt up in place of a 351W. So a lot of 351W engines were replaced with 351C engines back in the day.

 

The 351M is a member of the 335 engine family (351C, 351M and 400). The 351M has a 1" taller deck just like a 400. The only parts that interchange between a 351M/400 and a 351C would be the heads, distributor, oil pan, timing chain cover, water pump and maybe a couple of other parts. The 351M/400 use big block motor mounts and the big block (429/460) bellhousing pattern. This was to allow them to be dropped into cars and trucks in place of 429/460 engines. As mentioned before the 351M came out in 1974 which was in the midst of the Arab Oil Embargo which caused huge oil shortages in the U.S. at that time. Many people went to small engines or smaller cars.

 

A 351M/400 would take some work to install in a Mustang. You'd have to come up with some motor mounts, use a big block transmission and fabricate headers since none are made to fit that engine in a Mustang. You'd probably have issues getting headers to work since the 351M/400 is wider than a 351C and headers are tight on a 351C in a vintage Mustang.

Edited November 2, 2014 by maxum96

[blueoval177 10]

Are you referring to paperwork for the build of the engine, "I also had someone at a show tell me that there is a possibility that this cleveland got shoved in instead of a windsor as the build says 351M only."? The 351M was not produced until 74 or so.

 

"M" code is a build code, which in 69 meant a 351 windsor and '70 a 351c, here's a source http://www.allfordmustangs.com/forums/classic-talk/96359-1969-mustang-mach-1-m-code-windsor-not.html

 

Its definitely not a 351m from the mid 70's, sorry for the confusion. I'm guessing someone dropped a 351c in here between 69 and 72, I have no idea where the original windsor is. The first thing I need to take care of is the carb, its a 650 Holley, possibly off a truck, from the 80's. Looking at edelbrock 650 avs or maybe a holley demon?

Edited November 2, 2014 by blueoval177

[LoneWolf2U 136]

The M code is for 4V carbed engine. The double pumper is not the best with automatics so I would go with a 750 vac sec Holley for the C.

[Brian Conway 264]

I think I would beat on it for a while. Good way to find out what needs help. May need brakes or suspension before it needs more gitty up. Besides it's a little more fun. Brian

[beecj0 11]

Cleveland heads require a build unlike ANY other. 4v can make bottom end and 2Vs can make top end. With some work 2Vs can get to 500 hp! a lot less work will get you 375-400 hp. Vac secondary carbs are for commuters! Do some research @ Pantera Internationale and network54.com for some good cleveland info. George P can show you the light.

[1969_Mach1 333]

I agree when your seeing 351M, it's referring to a 4 barrel 351 Windsor motor. Check your vin tag on the dash. I don't recall the exact character, but it is probably an 'M', which is a 4 barrel 351 Windsor. I've never heard or read in any of my Mustang reference books about 351 Cleveland motors being installed in a 1969 model year Mustang.

[mystangalang351 12]

I believe it is opposite. 2v makes low power 4v makes top. Pretty sure.

[blueoval177 10]

Hey thanks again guys. It was built in late June or July (end of '69 build), would need to see the Martis report again, and has some '70 interior parts. I know its an M code car for sure. The cleveland has a D0Z block, so 1970. I found a link, http://www.karmustang.com/product.php?productid=16146&cat=278&page=1 , that talks about 69's with possible clevelands. Would make a good story if it could be true.

 

My biggest issue is getting the carb/cam/intake and heads all to match up. I got told the block will be my shortfall at about 400hp, I know its got 2 bolt mains when it was rebuilt 20 years ago. I don't know if I could get a 4v head setup to work on this block with a 3.25 gear set and a C6 - I will check out those other sites, a 351c seems interesting to put together

 

Here's a pic - was driving to a wedding. It was originally that jade green and it got painted yellow with satin sport stripes added, boss-ish theme I suppose. (I got it this way)

 

[ATTACH]18228[/ATTACH]

Edited November 2, 2014 by blueoval177

[beecj0 11]

I believe it is opposite. 2v makes low power 4v makes top. Pretty sure.

 

Just saying they can.

[beecj0 11]

Hey thanks again guys. It was built in late June or July (end of '69 build), would need to see the Martis report again, and has some '70 interior parts. I know its an M code car for sure. The cleveland has a D0Z block, so 1970. I found a link, http://www.karmustang.com/product.php?productid=16146&cat=278&page=1 , that talks about 69's with possible clevelands. Would make a good story if it could be true.

 

My biggest issue is getting the carb/cam/intake and heads all to match up. I got told the block will be my shortfall at about 400hp, I know its got 2 bolt mains when it was rebuilt 20 years ago. I don't know if I could get a 4v head setup to work on this block with a 3.25 gear set and a C6 - I will check out those other sites, a 351c seems interesting to put together

 

Here's a pic - was driving to a wedding. It was originally that jade green and it got painted yellow with satin sport stripes added, boss-ish theme I suppose. (I got it this way)

 

[ATTACH]18228[/ATTACH]

Nice car! Build it how you want. Core shift was the cause of POTENTIAL thin spots in clevelands. 600 hp is not an issue for a good block. the cranks can handle 800! Dont tell anyone, but i have a .040 over block that runs to 7300 every time I hit the street! lifter bushings and oil restrictors will make it live.

[blueoval177 10]

From the bit of research I've done here is what I'm thinking. I may be able to get my hands on some Edelbrock alum 61629 heads which means going to a hydraulic roller setup. I know its not CHI quality but its cheap and better than the low compression 2v irons.

 

- Holley 80508SA 750cfm vacuum secondary (3310 w/ elec choke?)

- RPM air gap intake

- Edelbrock 7168 cam

 

Eventually convert to electric fan and higher stall converter.

[beecj0 11]

The eddy heads are like an aluminum stock 2v head. if you're lookin to drop the weight, its a good choice. If you're lookin for better compression,pistons are lots cheaper. Clevelands like about 200cfm more than smaller port, velocity based haeds (windsor, chev, non hemi mopars). 750 would be a minimum, but a good place to start. If its a toy, manual secondaries are a must. Commuter/daily driver, vac secs. Just my opinion.

[blueoval177 10]

It will be a toy, not a daily driver but I would like it to be less of a headache than more of one. I am looking at the Edelbrock 650 AVS and that Holley 750, any recommendations? I've been seeing vacuum based secondaries are better for my C6?

[beecj0 11]

If you have enough vacume to open the secondaries, you need a bigger cam! hahaha.

Im runnin two 1050 dominators on an individual runner intake(weber 8v style). I like the head fkcuin it gives people when they see them.

But really, the Eddy carbs are easy to tune. You WILL make more hp with a tuned holley though. Ive tried running vac carbs and swapped back to mechanical secs every time. its not to often I'm easing on the gas. Its on, off, or cruising(stationary mid throttle).You know, a toy.

Edited November 3, 2014 by beecj0

[1969_Mach1 333]

I use to run a 750 vacuum secondary on a 351W 4 speed in my Mach 1. I now use a 700 cfm Holley mechanical secondary and have also tried a Holley 650 cfm mechanical secondary carb. In my case both mechanical secondary carbs outperform the 750 vacuum secondary. Whatever you choose make sure it has provisions for the kick down linkage for your C6. The Holley ultra double pumpers are set for the auto trans kick down linkage. If you're set on the idea of a vacuum secondary Holley, people seem to have good luck with the older 780 cfm Holley, list 3310 and not 3310-x where x is 1,2,3,4... Its basically a 750 vacuum secondary with down leg boosters instead of straight leg boosters and also a secondary metering block. For some reason it works a lot better then a 750 cfm vacuum secondary.

Edited November 3, 2014 by 1969_Mach1

[beecj0 11]

X2^^

I always forget about the kick down! I don't run one, I just shift it down manually. That's a personal choice you will have to make. Every thing you change will have an effect on something ells in your combo.

Its hard but it will save you time and money if you only buy parts that will get you to your end goal. Even if it doesn't work the best for the time being. I went with the performer, then the rpm, then the xcelerator and now a tunnel ram base. the first thee i was trying to make it more street friendly. then i said screw it, I'm goin all out! the tunnel ram is the most street friendly of them all!! If some one says it wont work, ask them if they've done it. Just have an end goal and go for it! And don't be scared! The 2V heads are more forgiving than the 4Vs.

[69droptopgt 10]

All M code 69 cars are windsors. All M code 1970 cars are clevelands. The 1970 2 barrel cars ( h code) can be windors but marti would relect this. I also think the H code 1969 could be either. But majority of 1970 were clevelands.

[69droptopgt 10]

What I posted was directly from something marti was quoted saying. Looks like a nice ride.