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What did you do to/for your Mustang today?

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1 hour ago, 70Mach1rb said:

Nice. I need to get a distributor for my 351 but not sure what to get. What type did you get for your engine here?

 

Did you build this? What size? How many hp?

Rick

A proper one for your 70 would be an Autolite single or dual diaphragm. Guess it makes a difference if you have that heat operated valve by the thermostat or not. 

 

https://www.npdlink.com/search/products?search_terms=distributor&top_parent=200001&year=1970

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Thank you. The engine block is 2V heads and 2bbl set up. yet going to a 4bbl intake from Edelbrock and just leaving the 2v heads to see what they do. I have a 4V set of heads and the 4v intake for it. So guess the engine is whatever I want it to be at this point. Not sure what heat operated valve you would be talking about. I don't have anything right now on the intake. 

I will want performance parts probably like msd ignition, coil, etc... so probably need to go with a more expensive distributer?

Appreciate the reply and advice. 

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Finally installed Pertronix ignition and flamethrower coil.  I bought it years ago but never installed it.  Went to put it in and I had the wrong model so I ordered from Advance and drove to pick it up.  started up first try.  My car starts better, runs smoother, It doesn't run rich anymore (I think my points went out of adjustment after 50 miles) and I can't believe I didn't do this earlier.

 

On my F150 I changed out the rear diff fluid and the 4x4 transfer case fluid.  I wouldn't think it would make a difference but I'm getting better gas mileage  now.  Diff fluid was not cloudy but who knows.

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Well, all this week I have been buttoning up my engine reinstall.  I got everything completed Tuesday night and went to start the engine... nothing but backfires.  I played with the distributor and tried again... nothing but backfires.  It was late, so I went to bed.  Wednesday evening I went at it again.  I checked that TDC on crank matched TDC on the piston (finger over the hole trick), so at least the distributor timing was matching the crank.  I then started moving the distributor around until I found a spot where the car would start and run.  Then I found I forgot to put the spark plug back in.  So then I did THAT... and I got it to run again.  Ran different than it did, but its a slightly different cam.  Went to time the engine... cant see the timing marks,  Took the timing light under the car and found that the timing marks (TDC at least) are about 60-70 degrees advanced.  Tried to retard the ignition to take it out, and the car died.... F***.

So the conclusion I have come to is that, somehow, I installed the timing set incorrectly.  If anyone else has any ideas what else it could be, please let me know.  I ordered a new timing set and gasket kit to be here tomorrow.

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How did you not get the marks lined up on the timing gears?  It's fairly obvious when they are off one tooth.  Plus, if your timing chain is installed wrong the rhythm will sound odd when cranking the motor.

Is it something simple like the inductive pick-up on the timing light is connected to the wrong spark plug wire?  When you installed the distributor was #1 cylinder on TDC compression stroke or TDC overlap stroke?  Merely sticking something in the spark plug hole to monitor piston movement and checking the timing marks on the balancer and pointer will not confirm which it is.

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@1969_Mach1  I don’t know how I did it, but you are right... Cranking had an odd cadence to it. Regular, and then it would skip, then regular, then it would skip.  Repeat ad nauseam.

I checked TDC roughly by pulling #1 plug (which I proceeded to not reinstall), removing the cap, and having my wife crank it over with my finger over the plug hole. Compression was around where the rotor pointed to #1 (marked it on the dizzie body), and I then checked the timing marks. I had previously checked it with the heads off to verify they were right, then I marked both the inner hub and outer ring in one spot so I could see if/when it slipped, and it hasn’t slipped.

I will have parts tomorrow.  I am pumping out the coolant tonight.  Should be able to remedy this idiocy over the weekend.

@69ShelbyGT350H  It definitely ran. Didn’t sound right, so I didn’t drive it. But it ran.

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On 6/24/2019 at 1:27 PM, 70Mach1rb said:

Thank you. The engine block is 2V heads and 2bbl set up. yet going to a 4bbl intake from Edelbrock and just leaving the 2v heads to see what they do. I have a 4V set of heads and the 4v intake for it. So guess the engine is whatever I want it to be at this point. Not sure what heat operated valve you would be talking about. I don't have anything right now on the intake. 

I will want performance parts probably like msd ignition, coil, etc... so probably need to go with a more expensive distributer?

Appreciate the reply and advice. 

Personally, I went with Pertronix for the coil and distributor.  So far its been great.  Pertronix does have its own line of performance parts.  Are you working on a 351C?

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16 hours ago, 69ShelbyGT350H said:

I'm not even sure the engine would run at all with the cam off that much. 1 tooth would be about 16 deg at the crank, 8 at the cam. Sounds like something else is off.  

What could it be?  I cant think of anything except a) timing chain off, or b) camshaft ground wrong.  I degreed the camshaft enough to verify TDC and ICL.  Both were spot on.  I have a new timing set in there, but I will be replacing it just to be sure.

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Sorry, I have not been following your entire issue, but you said you replaced the cam due to a wiped lifter/lobe? I recently did the same thing but as I was destroying distributor gears. It was determined that the gear on the cam was bad and so I order a replacement CompCams 280H. After installing I could not get the engine to run well at all. 4 clean plugs and 4 black plugs. I checked firing order, valve lash, and yes, even pulled the timing chain cover to see if I had somehow missed a tooth when I put the new gear set on. It was all good. I had purchased my 280H back in the late 80's, and it used a 289/302 firing order. Turns out, the new cam Summit sent me, is also a 280H, but its the 351w/302HO firing order. They made a new version since I had purchased the original and when I asked for the same cam, I guess they assumed I had the newer version and so sent me that. So all I had to do was go back to the 351 firing order and it woke right up. 

 

That will not explain your timing mark being so far off unless you have the trigger on the wrong spark plug wire. When installing the gear set, the crank key is usually straight up, as well as the dot on the crank sprocket. If you can pull the harmonic bolt and see the keyway in the crank you can get a pretty good idea if your harmonic balancer has spun or not. Straight up your 0 timing mark should be at your timing pointer. As you know from degreeing the cam, even pulling the valve cover and watching the rockers will not tell you if the cam is a tooth off. But, if its 60 degrees off, you can see by rotating the crank in each direction and noting how far till the intake and exhaust rockers move, that you will be able to see if it really is that far off.

I miss my gear drive, but replaced it to see if it was what was causing my distributor gears to fail. It was not the problem.

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4 hours ago, Cantedvalve said:

What could it be?  I cant think of anything except a) timing chain off, or b) camshaft ground wrong.  I degreed the camshaft enough to verify TDC and ICL.  Both were spot on.  I have a new timing set in there, but I will be replacing it just to be sure.

If you took the time to correctly degree the camshaft, now I wonder.  Are you using a Pertronix distributor or just the assembly that replaces the ignition points in a stock distributor?  If it's the later, I have heard of those causing odd ignition timing issues.

15 hours ago, Cantedvalve said:

@1969_Mach1  I don’t know how I did it, but you are right... Cranking had an odd cadence to it. Regular, and then it would skip, then regular, then it would skip.  Repeat ad nauseam.

If I understand the cranking cadence you are describing, it's indicative of a cylinder or two with little compression.  On an older motor that's concerning.  On a new motor it's most often caused by hydraulic lifters that are not yet pumped up.

I have seen motors run when the timing chain is loose and jumped one tooth.   The motor runs, but barely, and while cranking the motor has an odd rhythm to it.  Difficult to describe, but it's not normal-normal-normal-skip-normal-normal-normal-skip-normal . . . 

I'm curious what you find?

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Okay. I quit

i have the front of the engine off. The timing marks on the gears line up perfectly. I am not off a tooth. I am also not inept at assembly. At least I have that going for me.

At top dead center. Rotor points at #3 wire. That means the base timing on the ignition is approximately 45* advanced.  I am tempted to try degreeing this thing again. I installed it straight up.

argh! What else should I be looking for?

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51 minutes ago, Cantedvalve said:

Okay. I quit

i have the front of the engine off. The timing marks on the gears line up perfectly. I am not off a tooth. I am also not inept at assembly. At least I have that going for me.

At top dead center. Rotor points at #3 wire. That means the base timing on the ignition is approximately 45* advanced.  I am tempted to try degreeing this thing again. I installed it straight up.

argh! What else should I be looking for?

You did not mention where your timing pointer is at with the marks lined up?

AT TDC the rotor is pointing at #3? Can you turn it so its pointing at #1? With the motor at TDC, pull the distributor and put it back in so the rotor points to about 12 O'clock looking at it from the front of the car. That should be about where #1 wire is at. If you have a vacuum advance, that should be pointing about 6 O'clock. 

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I know, you might have done it already, but here are some things I can suggest, in a random order that I am thinking of them. Check your wires for proper firing order. Check your cam specs and make sure this is the correct firing order. Make sure the wire tips are still connected to the wires, and that each has a positive connection to both the rotor cap and plug. Pull your plugs and see if they are all a uniform color. Make sure you do not have any intake or carb vacuum leaks. Do you have a vacuum gauge to check the intake manifold vacuum? Check for a non-firing cylinder, check the temp of each exhaust port with a temp gun or water bottle with a small hole in it to create a small stream of water. 

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I think you are on it. I’m gonna pull the wires off completely and start over.

And to answer the question, the timing pointer is on 0 TDC with the timing marks on the gears lined up. Everything looks right.

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Okay, taking a break for a few minutes. I went ahead and replaced the new timing chain that I put in 0 miles ago with a new timing chain. Went in without a fuss. What was fussing with me was getting the front oil pan seal back in with the timing cover. I eventually dropped the pan down and took out the front crank seal to give myself enough room. It’s all in now. Bolts are torqued, pan is back up (didn’t tear the gasket, so I should be fine).  Got the front crank seal in. Next is the damper then the rest of it. I’m gonna pull the distributor, pretend like I know nothing of what I am doing, and follow written instructions. Hopefully it is my familiarity with this engine that made me miss/skip something stupid and cause this headache.

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18 hours ago, Cantedvalve said:

I think you are on it. I’m gonna pull the wires off completely and start over.

And to answer the question, the timing pointer is on 0 TDC with the timing marks on the gears lined up. Everything looks right.

So it sounds like it is assembled correctly. Not sure how you are getting a reading of the timing so far off unless you had the timing light trigger on the wrong wire or the wires are not in the correct firing order. Not sure that re-degreeing your cam is going to do anything for you. When degreeing my cam, I found my pointer is about 4 deg off from 0 on the damper. Got one of those strip timing tapes and put it on so Zero lines up with the marker. It's a Summit harmonic and possible the wrong timing marking on the timing cover, but it all measured out OK thanks to the degree wheel.

I have one of those blue 1 piece oil pan gaskets. Really nice but I have to drop the front of the pan to get the timing chain cover to seal with it. I will install the damper before I tighten the cover bolts so I can do a better job centering the damper seal. 

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