351 build shoot off, W vs. C

[Pakrat 1,043]

Next weekend on Power Block, Hot Rod I think, building a 351W and a 351C, side by side comparison. I assume they will cover ease, cost of build and then HP comparison to see about bang for buck, should prove interesting I hope.

[MustangChuck 16]

Should be Horsepower TV, 8:30am CST on Saturday. DVR already set....

[Klutch 17]

I'm hoping that's what it is. But I'm fearful they'll take a stroked Windsor crate motor with aluminum heads and run it against a stock Cleveland with a broomstick of a cam and say, "Wow, what a great buy this 351w crate motor from Bubba's Engine Supply is. It beat the Cleveland!".

[RogerC 136]

I want to believe they'll do their research on building a cleveland but I fear they'll do what Klutch says. Wjsh I could watch it but I'm busy next Saturday and no DVR.

[buening 63]

IMO the main kicker of their comparison will come in cylinder head choice and how well they are matched to the camshaft. In stock form the cleveland is an easy winner due to the better flowing canted valve heads, but with the aftermarket head choices of both it doesn't become as clear.

[jeepcj7304 10]

DVR set but likely it will be crate motors thats where advertising dollars and free parts come together.

[LindenBruce 27]

DVR set but likely it will be crate motors thats where advertising dollars and free parts come together.

 

Sounds about right. Those shows, while having a cool factor, really don't have enough time per episode to really show you the meat and potato's of what is going on. Especially when you factor in the darned commercials. All you get is a picture and a sentence. That's why I have stopped watching. Get me all worked up with an unsatisfactory finish!!! Bruce

[Lemon Owner 11]

I own both cleveland and windsor engines and with all things being equal dollar for dollar the windsor wins. Here in Oz it will cost $2500 to fully rebuild a pair of heads (cleveland or windsor). For that sort of money you could buy a pair of aluminium aftermarket windsor heads which would flow the equivalent numbers to the 4V cleveland heads. Which is about the only thing the cleveland has going for it. It is a large and heavy engine with no real strength advantage over the windsor. So the windsor is capable of making the same horsepower and torque of a cleveland engine for the same $ without the size and weight.

 

And I'm sure they will come to the same conclusion on the tv program.

Edited September 25, 2012 by Lemon Owner

[Klutch 17]

I just watched the show. I must say, I was pleasantly surprised.

 

We started off with the crew combing a salvage yard for a Cleveland and a Windsor. They pulled a Cleveland from an old LTD and a Windsor from a newer truck with EFI.

 

They showed some easy identification points between the two engines. Then they pointed out interior differences during the teardown process.

 

They're going to run the 2V heads on the Cleveland to start. Then they're going to switch to 4V heads. They installed a single profile cam, which may not bode well for the Cleveland. And they're boosting the compression to 10:1.

 

The 2V heads were machined for screw-in, adjustable rocker studs. They also installed beehive valve springs.

 

The Windsor they're using is a roller motor. So, perhaps the W will have an advantage if they use a new roller cam.

 

Looking forward to next week!

[jeepcj7304 10]

I just wish they would carb both and not use the windsors fuel injection. I think it is going to make a big difference

[Klutch 17]

I just wish they would carb both and not use the windsors fuel injection. I think it is going to make a big difference

 

I didn't think they were going to use the EFI on the Windsor. I caught a brief shot in the preview and I'm pretty sure both engines had a carb sitting on top. I doubt they could use the factory EFI. I'm sure it's quite shot.

[jandj1970 13]

I watched a tv show here in australia, both blokes built 347 stroked windsor same carb, intake, ignition, heads. Now the only differences was 1 guy used a flat tappet cam, the other guy used a roller cam. The roller cammed engine pulled 30 hp more then flat tappet cam. It would be interesting if they used a roller cam in the cleveland to see what it would pull in this tv show.

[Lemon Owner 11]

I hope they make all things equal by matching them dollar for dollar and they will set aside a few dollars for a roller cam for the clevo.

 

Good that they are using the 2V heads for the cleveland, they are so much more streetable over the storm water drain intakes on the 4V!

[Pakrat 1,043]

I have to say that after heaing all the downer guesses of what they would probably do when I first posted this I was also pleasantly surprised to see that they started at a pick and pull and are doing a pretty thorough run through given the time constraints, I'm looking forward to the follow up next week to see where they net out, this comparison is something all 69/70 owners have debated about again and again.

[Klutch 17]

I have to say that after heaing all the downer guesses of what they would probably do when I first posted this I was also pleasantly surprised to see that they started at a pick and pull and are doing a pretty thorough run through given the time constraints, I'm looking forward to the follow up next week to see where they net out, this comparison is something all 69/70 owners have debated about again and again.

 

I agree. It's already much better than I expected.

 

I think most people would agree that if you compare iron heads to iron heads, the Cleveland spanks all over the Windsor. So, I guess the big questions is how the Cleveland iron heads compare to the aftermarket Windsor heads.

 

I'm also anxious to see the power curve with the Cleveland 2V heads vs. the 4V heads. The guys on the Cleveland forum say much of what we here about the 4V heads being too big and having no low-end is a myth. They chalk it up poor builds, which would make sense.

[Pakrat 1,043]

I'd also like to see a final HP vs. $$ review for the total build or any variations of it because I think that is important too. Money can only buy you so much coolness and it's not feasible for most of us to spend a significant amount more in a build on just a few extra horses because of starting block choice.

[Pakrat 1,043]

So I thought the results were pretty interesting, not exactly the fair fight I was hoping for but interesting info none the less especially how the 2V vs. 4V heads worked out on the C engine and the advantages on street vs. a track car.

 

I've had a free 351W minus heads and intake that was given to me when I asked for my engine stand back and I figured some day when the car was done I may just build it and give my low mileage number matching original a storage nap. I'd often thought I just may use the 351 heads that are on my 302 now but I have to say I like the look af that 408 Clevor build they did. I have to make a list of the parts on the show and price it all out before I delete from the DVR for future reference.

[MustangChuck 16]

Here's a link to the episode's website.

 

Apparently the Clevor used the Edelbrock 2060 Power Package along with an Accel 52204 dizzy.

 

Chuck

[RogerC 136]

Just watched the second episode on their site. Gotta say I'm a little disappointed. Just swapping out the heads alone on the Cleveland tells you nothing. Re-using the same manifold and headers with the 4V heads?? Hardly optimized. If they did their homework and optimized the Cleveland for each set of heads (entire package) with a reasonable power level goal in mind, the results would have been more impressive. Still not bad results for a basic 351C build vs a much modified 351W build.

Edited October 10, 2012 by RacerX

[69gmachine 15]

Thanks for posting the link. I really enjoyed the 2nd episode. They shouldn't have billed it as a Windsor vs Cleveland comparison, more like different cleveland builds.

 

I think they made it clear that the package for a 4V wasn't optimized for power or torque, but at least you could see what a single component change would do. I don't think the 2v package was optimized either, they should have used a dual plane intake.

 

A better comparison would have been to use a stroker crank in the Cleveland also. It would be fair to use a slightly shorter throw since it's not practical to package a 4" stroke in a cleveland, but a 3.85 would have been close enough.

[royclore 10]

Yea I thought it was pretty bad that they stroked the windsor but not the cleveland. They also used open chamber 4 v heads instead of closed chambers.

That would have made a difference with a bump in compression and better cam. Kind of funny that the windsor ended up with the better cleveland heads.

Not a fair comparison.

 

Roy

[Nightowl 10]

I watched the show, and why did they want to make the Windsor into a Cleavland? I suspect that they are saying the Windsor is the stronger block? I have a Chilton's repair book from back in 1972, and it shows the 351 from 1969 with a 4V @10.7.1 compression ratio. As I look at the book, the Cleveland didn't come out until 1970, and the compression ratio for that engine was 11.0.1. Just some observations.

[LoneWolf2U 136]

After wasting the time to watch both shows, It confirmed the point they are Chevy Bozo's.

Nothing was a fair look at the 351's, One was a C flat tappet and the other was a W roller like compairing apples and oranges.

:glare:...Lets stroke the W and see if it makes more Hp than the stock stroke of the C.

Like the 2V vs 4v head swap and how they don't work well for the street.

No all they proved is the miss matching of parts will not work as well.

 

All they proved is that they can suck up to the shows sponsers real well.

[Lemon Owner 11]

It was a waste of time. Looked like they spent $10K on the Windsor and $100 on the clevo, hardly a fair comparison. Then to change the heads from 2V to 4V without even a basic matching manifold and carb change is beyond any reasoning. Even though I am a big fan of the windsor, value for money wise, I think the clevo was let down tremendously.