Definitive Heating/Cooling Theory/Troubleshooting Thread

[Rip Rock 13]

I have a 351c 30 over. The rad I use is custom made, but the measurements are 4"x17" tall x 26.5" wide. I had to do some notching to get it to fit good. Also I took off the stock fan and shroud, and installed a flex-a-lite black magic xtreme #180 electric fan (3300 Cfm 15" Puller/Pusher, i`m pulling right now), also with the top cooling plate (which looks awesome). Now the temps are 170 to 180. Im very happy with the results.

Edited July 10, 2012 by Rip Rock

[Cupid 10]

...the top cooling plate (which looks awesome). Now the temps are 170 to 180. Im very happy with the results.

 

 

Now stop teasing me and show me a pic of this install...especially the "cooling plate".:thumbup1:

[Rip Rock 13]

Now stop teasing me and show me a pic of this install...especially the "cooling plate".:thumbup1:

http://www.1969stang.com/mustang/forum/showthread.php?t=8841&page=2

 

Post #19 1st pic Can`t miss it!! I bought this one, but may make a cooling plate / areodynamic plate for under the car, up too the oil pan.

[Rip Rock 13]

http://undercoverinnovations.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1_23&products_id=113

 

I bought this one through a vender up here. It looks good, and it forces the fan to suck throgh the rad. Definitely made a difference in cooling.

[Cupid 10]

^ Dude, that's freakin' sweet! Love it. I wonder if it will actually help?

[Rip Rock 13]

^ Dude, that's freakin' sweet! Love it. I wonder if it will actually help?

It does a bit imo! Not a bit difference but a small one. I have also tried something similar in my supra and now in the mach. For how much it`s worth, its a great addition.

[buening 63]

The key is getting a good seal between the hood and the top of the radiator support, much like what was installed on the 6cyl and 428 cars. That grill cowl helps direct the air to the radiator but there is still that gap above that air can go through.

[Cupid 10]

Hey guys,

 

I got my restrictor in the mail yesterday and was able to throw it in last night and got some success.

 

Set-up:

20" Aluminum Champion Radiator

17" Mechanical Fan

16" Electric Pusher

160* HF Themo

Flow Kooler Pump

WCCC Restrictor Plate

50/50 Coolant

 

Statistics:

Ambient: 75*

A/C on at traffic light: 207*

A/C on at speed: 198*

No A/C: 185-195

 

 

Initial readings after some nice runs and parked at the house...

Gauge: 200*

Sender: 197*

Return Hose: 173

Inlet Hose: 163

 

By the time I took these readings, the gauge dropped to 193 within minutes...Probably would have continued to drop at idle.

 

So overall, not bad, but not perfect! I'll take it until I get the higher capacity radiator.

 

The WCCC restrictor definitely solved my overheating problems for now. Let's see how it works when it's 100* outside. (I'm nervous about that...)

 

If I had to do it all over again, I would have just picked up a Weiand (sp?) HF water pump with the bypass delete instead of the flow kooler. That will eliminate the need for the WCCC piece. Since I had the Flow Kooler, spending $20 was the better option.

 

Please check out the install pics. You all can see that the problem was my thermostat (Cleveland Specific NAPA 197) was almost useless with regard to blocking the flow through the standard Cleveland restrictor. This was undoubtedly my problem.

 

Thanks to all the folks at 69STANG for letting me cry on your shoulder. I'll report back when I get the larger radiator in place and it's 100* outside! :thumbup1:

[danno 128]

What is the WCCC restrictor plate? Is that unique to a 351C? I am not sure I understand.

[miketyler 15]

Unique to the 351c. I may have to look into this if my 351c runs hot once I get it all in one pile.

[Cupid 10]

What is the WCCC restrictor plate? Is that unique to a 351C? I am not sure I understand.

 

 

Sorry,

Guess I started rambling without an explanation!

 

So, from all my research, Clevelands are known to run hot(not overheat, but overall have higher operating temperatures)...for several reasons....

 

One of those reasons is due to the thermostat not blocking the bypass passage completely when the engine is up to temp. (This was my problem. You can see this in the "HugeGap" pic above)

 

WCCC made a restrictor plate to block off the bypass completely (well almost completely...with the exception of the pin-hole for burping). This does two things, 1) it allows you to use regular ford thermostats (clevelands have specific thermostats) and 2) it blocks off the bypass passage, consequently allowing your water pump to pump fluid throughout your entire cooling system rather that just recirculating it in the block. What does that mean?

 

Glad you asked!

 

Apparently the Cleveland has a bypass circuit that recirculates fluid to the front part of the motor. This allows the engine to get up to operating temperature much quicker. Once the motor is up to operating temperature the thermostat opens up, thus blocking the bypass and as a result flowing fluid throughout the entire cooling system.

 

The WCCC restrictor plate blocks that passage indefinitely to flow fluid throughout the entire system 100% of the time.

 

If I have any of this wrong, the smart guys on this board will clean up my explanation, but I think this is best way my mediocre mind can explain it.

 

Hope that helped

Edited July 13, 2012 by Cupid
my logic was jacked up...

[Cupid 10]

Unique to the 351c. I may have to look into this if my 351c runs hot once I get it all in one pile.

 

Mike, if you do nothing else, please....for the well being of your motor ensure you measure the stock restrictor opening and compare it to the base of your thermostat. If your thermostat base doesn't cover the hole, or you have the wrong thermostat, your motor *will* run hot or overheat. I can guarantee it.

 

I just got tired of the bull and blocked it off. My Cleveland and I are quite happy (as well as every other person I know that has done the mod).

 

Actually, now that I have thought about it a little more, i'd run this before the Weiand. At least you can still recirculate fluid through the block. Can't do that with the Weiand.

[LoneWolf2U 136]

C engines run a dry intake, Unlike the W engines which have a bypass for coolant to circulate thru the block when the stat is closed.

 

Failure to have the restrictor ring and proper stat or a blockoff plate installed in the C engine and it will run hot due to lack of coolant flow to radiator once the stat opens.

[miketyler 15]

Here is a pretty good write up from one of the Pantera guys. Has a table of correct 351c thermostats and pics of the unique 351c water pump with the bypass circuit hole.

 

http://www.banzairunnerpantera.com/updates_thermostat.htm

Edited July 13, 2012 by miketyler

[Cupid 10]

Hey guys,

 

I received my new radiator unit yesterday and let me tell you, it is the best looking aluminum welded piece of artwork I've ever seen in my life!

 

But.....

 

It comes with a temp sending unit that apparently is not like a standard one that sends a continuous signal to my digital gauge... I merely sends "on/off" signals to the fan relay. DANG!!!!!!

 

The Cleveland only has the one temp sending unit location. Not good. I'm looking for something like (http://www.summitracing.com/search/Product-Line/Meziere-Water-Neck-Spacers/) this so I can use the gauge TSU as well as the Fan TSU. Any ideas would be welcome. Yes, this sucks....

[LoneWolf2U 136]

If I understand it, There is no place to put the fan sending unit in the rad?

So with the C engine what I would do is use a short peice of tubing with a bung welded in it for the off/on sending unit inline within the upper rad hose.

Sorta like the filter used to collect coolant crap from going into the rad.

Simple and you still use the temp sender in the block for your guage.

[Cupid 10]

Right...no where to put the fan sending unit in the rad...shocking...I know.

 

This might be the way to go.

[Cupid 10]

Crisis solved: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/FLX-32082/

 

Apparently there is a water jacket on the driver's side near the rear of the block as well. I'll have to check this when I get home. I'd like to have all the wiring up front and away from exhaust pipes.

[LoneWolf2U 136]

Using the summit part would be your best way to go.

If there is a water jacket in the rear( I don't think so) it would be a poor place for eather of the sending units.

It would eather start the fans too soon or give you a false reading in temp.

Edited July 24, 2012 by Mach1Rider

[Cupid 10]

Agreed. I think it's on the side. Check this out. (Lower Rear) http://www.musclemustangfastfords.com/tech/mmfp_0911_installing_a_400m_small_block_into_a_351_cleveland_stroker_engine/photo_09.html

[buening 63]

Is the sender in the radiator not removable? If so, just R&R it with the correct sender. I guess a picture would help.

[LoneWolf2U 136]

Agreed. I think it's on the side. Check this out. (Lower Rear) http://www.musclemustangfastfords.com/tech/mmfp_0911_installing_a_400m_small_block_into_a_351_cleveland_stroker_engine/photo_09.html

 

 

Thats the blocks drain plug.

Still not a great place for eather temp sender for accurate readings.

[Cupid 10]

The good:

Thanks to your suggestions, I went with a larger capacity radiator and boy, between the block off plate and this new radiator, my Cleveland is super happy.

 

The bad:

I wasn't able to come up with an alternative plan to mount both, the BeCool fan on/off switch and my Autometer digital gauge TSU into the block. I ended up mounting the TSU inside the radiator hose knowing full well that up until the thermostat opens at 160, I wouldn't get an accurate reading. My reasoning was i'm more concerned that my fan cuts on at 195* than I am with an immediate temperature reading below 160*. Plus, my engine will always run above 160*...that's just a fact. The lowest i've ever seen it get was upper 170s*.....therefore I will always have a correct reading when the car is up to temp.

 

I've included some ratty cell phone pics showing the installation of the radiator in relation to the engine and the wiring. I did have to cut the tabs off of the radiator support to get the whole module to fit. I fabbed up brackets to hold it at the top. The radiator was, in fact a direct fit....if......you were not using the dual fans. It'd work if you were running a flex fan and stock shroud...probably. The module was just way to think for me to even remotely get it to work.

 

On a 80* day, it would not go over 201* at a stop light with the A/C on. My fans actually cycled off and on. That's really cool!:thumbup1: My A/C compressor actually cycled off and on too, and let me tell you, it was cold!

 

The bottom line is, i'm almost ready for cruising and the occasional autocross appearance! I'll post better pics and another report with the readings on a 100* day.