Borgeson Install for Beginners.....Like Me

[erblo 10]

has anyone installed the Borgeson box and achieved good return to center? Can you post your caster spec?

 

I used a new OEM style idler arm and it doesn't return to center. I think that this is an alignment issue. Given that the OEM idler arm doesn't seem to be returning to center anyways, I'm thinking about swapping in a roller idler arm and then having it aligned with 4 degrees caster.

 

FYI the steering is very manageable with the stock PS pump. Slightly more effort than stock PS, but not uncomfortable. I think the addition of the roller idler arm may offset the difference. (talking about stopped/slow speed performance).

 

My other bit of advice is to only buy the box, AN fittings and rag joint. Both hoses are useless (I had to get mine custom made) and I had trouble with the steering adapter too (not sure what the deal was there, went with manual linkage).

Edited May 6, 2011 by erblo

[Big Secz 26]

Well today was my first real drive with the new Borgeson power steering. I drove to a car show about 25 miles away. I was not impressed. I was on the highway for about 15 of those miles and the people behind me must have thought I was intoxicated with the way the car was swerving. I don't know what the issue is but it is hard to keep the car in a straight line. You hit a bump in the road and it throws the car to one side. And then you have to deal with overcorrecting. It's a mess. I don't knnow if it's the stock pump, or if it's because the wheel doesn't return to center, the steering is scary.

 

Any ideas???????

 

Oh, I also now have an exhaust leak which I think it was from my attempt to remove the driver's side header. I guess I'll see if I can tighten the header bolts more.

 

BTW, I won 1st place in the 64 1/2 - 73 Modified Class....The show was judged by the National Capital Region Mustang Club.

[rangerdoc 22]

Congrats on your win. You do have a nice looking car.

 

How did your car drive before? I have a hard time believing the new system is the cause based on other reviews. Are you sure you don't have any bad bushings anywhere up front? What are your suspension mods? Did you ever get it re-aligned?

[Big Secz 26]

Congrats on your win. You do have a nice looking car.

 

How did your car drive before? I have a hard time believing the new system is the cause based on other reviews. Are you sure you don't have any bad bushings anywhere up front? What are your suspension mods? Did you ever get it re-aligned?

 

 

Before the steering was real loose. But I could drive it one handed. Now I have to have both hands on the wheel just in case it wants to dart to one side or the other. I had it in the for an alignment and the tech greased everything for me. The only suspension mod I have had done is 1" lowering springs and mid-eye leafs in the rear. I don't know what's going on.

[rangerdoc 22]

It seems like an alignment issue then, especially the way you described the reaction after hitting bumps. What specs did the shop use? Did they give you a print out that you can post the after alignment specs on here?

 

I know you didn't really drive it much before it went to the shop, but how does the before/after alignment compare?

[Big Secz 26]

Here's the spec sheet the alignment shop gave me. It's all Greek to me. But he circled two numbers and said that was a close as he could get.

[rangerdoc 22]

The caster is too positive. The actual stock caster range is -.75*to +1.25* so their specs are wrong to start with. The other specs they have are correct. However, I don’t think the caster is causing you any problems. If anything it should make it harder to steer and give you more straight line stability. But…too much positive caster results in negative camber in a turn…see below. So maybe…maybe, that is adding to your issues. I still don’t think it is terrible though. Remember, you have radial tires now. The original specs were not designed for that. You need positive caster with radial tires (at least for normal driving).

 

The camber setting is also too negative, which is why your car doesn’t return to center. You need to have some positive camber. This is also contributing to the reaction when hitting a bump. When you hit a bump with the left tire does the car pull to the left? That is because of the negative camber on the right tire pushes the car towards the left tire that just lost some grip. The opposite will happen if you hit a bump with the right tire. Excessive negative camber helps you hold a turn but it takes away from straight line performance, causing your bump issues. Look at a road race car. The top of their tires are pointed inwards (negative) so they can corner hard. They don’t care about tire wear or straight line performance.

 

Your toe settings are fine.

 

The optimum settings for your car are Camber +1*, Caster +.25* and Toe-in .19. I think the camber is your main issue.

 

Doing the Arning drop to your car would help you get the most out of the 1” springs and help the alignment issues as well.

 

That is all just my opinion of course. Hopefully some other folks will chime in.

Edited May 8, 2011 by rangerdoc

[Big Secz 26]

Here's some more info: I went back on CJ Pony's site and looked at the kit that I ordered. Here it is http://www.cjponyparts.com/BORGESON-POWER-STEERING-UPGRADE-KIT-289-302-351W-1968-1970/p/PSK16/

 

Look at the URL, it states '68-'70 and it's identical to the kit offered on Borgeson's site for a '70. However click on the link and you will see it states it's for a '68-'69 and if you scroll down you will see where it states that it will not work with a '70 PS Pump. Any thoughts on this. Could my '70 pump be causing the issues, or do they say it won't work, simply because the lines are shorter and why I had such a hard time getting the return line installed?

[Big Secz 26]

Here's a little more to add to the confusion. I went on Borgeson's site here:

http://www.streetperformance.com/speedGateV2/results/?yearID=1970&makeID=54&modelID=32785&implementation=borgeson

 

Scroll down to Part #999024 and when you click on it it takes you to a different site. I even clicked on the other links and looked at the Part ID # in the URL and tried to guess at what the part ID # would be for that kit and I get nothing. It's as if that kit isn't available though they advertise it.

[erblo 10]

Big Secz - I don't know about your question about the pump, but I still think this is just an alignment issue, specifically the need for significantly more caster. I'm going to get mine realigned to these specs by the end of the week and I can report back.

 

http://www.totalcontrolproducts.com/faq.html#alignmentSpecs

[Big Secz 26]

I decided to go ahead and order the Saginaw p/s pump. I figured it would be best to go ahead and eliminate the stock pump in case that was causing any issues. Then once I install the Saginaw pump I'll start problem solving from there. But it looks as if steering geometry is going to be the overall issue.

[buening 63]

There is a thread somewhere on Stangnet where a rep from Borgeson was answer questions. This quote from Corner Carvers was quoted from that Stanget thread:

 

Originally Posted by Borgeson

Quote:

You mention that pump assist will be minimal below 800 rpm with the stock pump. Are there high rpm effects as well?

 

One of my biggest problems with the stock system is that the steering feels too easy at highway speed, which I have read is a function of the proportional flow rate. If this effect will remain with the new box, does the Saginaw replacement pump have a more consistent rate of flow?

 

Also, is the box know to be compatible with any aftermarket columns?

 

Thanks

No adverse effects at highway speed. The Ford pump does not generate sufficient pressure / flow at low RPM's to properly operate the box. Stock slave cylinder set-ups are very vague with no feedback, our box will have a good effort required at highway speed because of the modern variable assist valve.

 

We are working with IDIDIT to ensure that our box can be compatible with their replacement column.

 

Thanks

 

Corner Carvers Thread: http://corner-carvers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36047&page=4

[70mstang 11]

An issue I just ran into with my Saginaw pump was that the high pressure hose that is supposed to connect to the pump has a female end and the pump .. has a female connection (go figure). So make sure they send you all the pieces needed to connect up the pump. I'll be trying to get a hold of them in the morning.

 

The pictures in the Mustang Monthly do not show the same bracket as what is in the kit for our years. Borgeson uses a single bracket that fits behind the pump and mounts to the 2 existing bolt holes around the freeze plug. On mine the bolts were a tad too long and I needed to put some extra washers to allow them to snug up.

 

Update : Issue was they sent the wrong hose package. New ones are on the way.

Edited May 12, 2011 by 70mstang

[erblo 10]

Well, now I'm concerned.

 

Alignment complete with 4 degrees of caster and no change.

 

I suppose this warrants another call to Borgeson for their input, I wonder if my unit could be faulty? If I have to pull this out and send back to them again, I am going to be grumpy.

[Cupid 10]

Well, now I'm concerned.

 

Alignment complete with 4 degrees of caster and no change.

 

I suppose this warrants another call to Borgeson for their input, I wonder if my unit could be faulty? If I have to pull this out and send back to them again, I am going to be grumpy.

 

Dang. Update us on what's going on!

[Big Secz 26]

An issue I just ran into with my Saginaw pump was that the high pressure hose that is supposed to connect to the pump has a female end and the pump .. has a female connection (go figure). So make sure they send you all the pieces needed to connect up the pump. I'll be trying to get a hold of them in the morning.

 

The pictures in the Mustang Monthly do not show the same bracket as what is in the kit for our years. Borgeson uses a single bracket that fits behind the pump and mounts to the 2 existing bolt holes around the freeze plug. On mine the bolts were a tad too long and I needed to put some extra washers to allow them to snug up.

 

 

I posted earlier in this thread where the hose comes with the wrong fitting for the original style power steering box. I swapped the fittings with the OE hose. I only hope the male fitting from the OE hose fits the hole in the saginaw pump.

[erblo 10]

Dang. Update us on what's going on!

 

I'm going to take it back to the shop tomorrow to have them check for any binding issues.

 

I installed all new steering linkages: center link, tie rods, idler, pitman, lower control arms, strut rods. The only other things I can think of would be some kind of binding in these new parts.

 

The other thing I considered was that I did not cut my steering column. I was able to collapse the column enough for clearance, but maybe it is rubbing somehow? I know others had an issue with this, but I was able to turn the wheel freely so I thought it was OK.

 

I don't see how the stock pump could cause this issue. The rep at Borgeson did not suggest it as a culprit.

 

If nothing is found, the box is going back to Borgeson to try again.

[erblo 10]

Well now I've spent a few hundred dollars on alignments and related suspension/steering tweaking. It is a little better than before but it certainly doesn't feel like "modern steering". Now have 4.5 degrees caster, can't go any further or I'll have clearance issues.

 

I think I'm going to drive it a while to see if it loosens up, otherwise I'll send it back.

[Cupid 10]

My steering column has the tranny lock mechanism and will most assuredly have to be cut off with an inch or two of the tube. I don't think this is a problem for you. After reading your post, I though for sure i'd be able to get away without cutting anything, but that isn't the case. It's funny, b/c the new Borg instructions indicate the box will bolt up with simply collapsing the column. Not so for automatic cars.

[Big Secz 26]

My steering column has the tranny lock mechanism and will most assuredly have to be cut off with an inch or two of the tube. I don't think this is a problem for you. After reading your post, I though for sure i'd be able to get away without cutting anything, but that isn't the case. It's funny, b/c the new Borg instructions indicate the box will bolt up with simply collapsing the column. Not so for automatic cars.

 

 

Cup. I ran into the same issue as I too have the tranny lock. I also mentioned earlier in the thread that the instructions that came with the kid say nothing at all about having to cut the column. I only found out for sure when I called Borgeson tech support at which time they told me that I needed to collapse the column anywher from 2"-3" not the 1/2"-1" as stated in the instructions. I ended up using a cut-off saw and just cut the tube without disassembling the entire steering column.

[Cupid 10]

^Thanks Big. I plan to do the same thing tonight. Perfect excuse to buy a Li-Ion Saw! Mwahahahaha.... Did you have to trim the outside tube as well or did you just cut off the tranny lock tube?

[Cupid 10]

^Thanks Big. I plan to do the same thing tonight. Perfect excuse to buy a Li-Ion Saw! Mwahahahaha.... Did you have to trim the outside tube as well or did you just cut off the tranny lock tube?

[Big Secz 26]

^Thanks Big. I plan to do the same thing tonight. Perfect excuse to buy a Li-Ion Saw! Mwahahahaha.... Did you have to trim the outside tube as well or did you just cut off the tranny lock tube?

 

Dont cut the tranny lock tube!!!!! The tranny lock tube will actually collapse into the steering column. You ONLY have to cut the outter most tube. After I cut the outter tube I actually tapped the steering column, end with the half of the rag joint, on the garage floor and got the tranny lock tube to collapse to the clearance that I needed.

 

Once the steering column was installed in the car I took a pry bar and pulled the rag joint down to mate up woth the steering box. The I took the pry bar and pulled the tranny lock tube down so it would line up with the lock out rod. Also you want to pull the tranny lock tube down a little bit at a time checking clearance with the rag joint bolts. Pull it down too far and the rag joint bolts will hit the tranny lock. That is what happened to me and I had to take the pry bar and push the tranny lock tube back to get the clearance I needed.

[Big Secz 26]

^Thanks Big. I plan to do the same thing tonight. Perfect excuse to buy a Li-Ion Saw! Mwahahahaha.... Did you have to trim the outside tube as well or did you just cut off the tranny lock tube?

 

Dont cut the tranny lock tube!!!!! The tranny lock tube will actually collapse into the steering column. You ONLY have to cut the outter most tube. After I cut the outter tube I actually tapped the steering column, end with the half of the rag joint, on the garage floor and got the tranny lock tube to collapse to the clearance that I needed.

 

Once the steering column was installed in the car I took a pry bar and pulled the rag joint down to mate up woth the steering box. The I took the pry bar and pulled the tranny lock tube down so it would line up with the lock out rod. Also you want to pull the tranny lock tube down a little bit at a time checking clearance with the rag joint bolts. Pull it down too far and the rag joint bolts will hit the tranny lock. That is what happened to me and I had to take the pry bar and push the tranny lock tube back to get the clearance I needed.

[Cupid 10]

Big, my Saginaw Pump return line points straight back into my head. It needs to curve a little. Did you have this problem?