Borgeson Install for Beginners.....Like Me

[Cupid 10]

Big, my Saginaw Pump return line points straight back into my head. It needs to curve a little. Did you have this problem?

[Big Secz 26]

Big, my Saginaw Pump return line points straight back into my head. It needs to curve a little. Did you have this problem?

 

I haven't installed my Saginaw p/s pump yet, but I did read about this happening in Mustang Monthly. So to prepare myself for it I purchased a pack of rubber insulated metal clamps also called Adel clamps, and I'll just use a self-tapping screw and mount it to the shock tower support.

[Big Secz 26]

Big, my Saginaw Pump return line points straight back into my head. It needs to curve a little. Did you have this problem?

 

I haven't installed my Saginaw p/s pump yet, but I did read about this happening in Mustang Monthly. So to prepare myself for it I purchased a pack of rubber insulated metal clamps also called Adel clamps, and I'll just use a self-tapping screw and mount it to the shock tower support.

[70mstang 11]

Seems like they have a bunch of different pumps laying around that they send out. My return line points straight down when the pump is installed. But I've seen pictures where they curve towards the engine, like yours. My pressure hose has to point straight up due to the bends they have in the lines. So my lines don't make for a pretty picture and run side by side like I was hoping.

 

I had to re-order the lines, I found out they had sent me the lines that connect to a stock Ford pump versus the Saginaw pump.

[70mstang 11]

Seems like they have a bunch of different pumps laying around that they send out. My return line points straight down when the pump is installed. But I've seen pictures where they curve towards the engine, like yours. My pressure hose has to point straight up due to the bends they have in the lines. So my lines don't make for a pretty picture and run side by side like I was hoping.

 

I had to re-order the lines, I found out they had sent me the lines that connect to a stock Ford pump versus the Saginaw pump.

[Cupid 10]

Big,

 

Unless the you know something I don't, that's going to be a super tight bend with the hose. If you have the borgeson hoses, they aren't that malleable. Hopefully you don't break off your tube. I wish it were that simple.

 

Talked to Borgeson,

They didn't know about the tight fit with the tube sticking directly back. Hopefully they took it for action. So, i'm stuck. I need to figure out how to get a 90* fitting on it. Anybody have any ideas? It's a 3/8" P/S return line.

[Cupid 10]

Big,

 

Unless the you know something I don't, that's going to be a super tight bend with the hose. If you have the borgeson hoses, they aren't that malleable. Hopefully you don't break off your tube. I wish it were that simple.

 

Talked to Borgeson,

They didn't know about the tight fit with the tube sticking directly back. Hopefully they took it for action. So, i'm stuck. I need to figure out how to get a 90* fitting on it. Anybody have any ideas? It's a 3/8" P/S return line.

[Big Secz 26]

Big,

 

Unless the you know something I don't, that's going to be a super tight bend with the hose. If you have the borgeson hoses, they aren't that malleable. Hopefully you don't break off your tube. I wish it were that simple.

 

Talked to Borgeson,

They didn't know about the tight fit with the tube sticking directly back. Hopefully they took it for action. So, i'm stuck. I need to figure out how to get a 90* fitting on it. Anybody have any ideas? It's a 3/8" P/S return line.

 

 

I looked at my pump in the box and the tube where you attach the return line pipes straight out the back below where the pressure line screws in.

[Big Secz 26]

Big,

 

Unless the you know something I don't, that's going to be a super tight bend with the hose. If you have the borgeson hoses, they aren't that malleable. Hopefully you don't break off your tube. I wish it were that simple.

 

Talked to Borgeson,

They didn't know about the tight fit with the tube sticking directly back. Hopefully they took it for action. So, i'm stuck. I need to figure out how to get a 90* fitting on it. Anybody have any ideas? It's a 3/8" P/S return line.

 

 

I looked at my pump in the box and the tube where you attach the return line pipes straight out the back below where the pressure line screws in.

[Cupid 10]

I looked at my pump in the box and the tube where you attach the return line pipes straight out the back below where the pressure line screws in.

 

Exactly. That's the problem. When trying to put that return line on (actually, I put the return line on the pump before putting it in) the pump, the return "tube" sticks out the back of the saginaw pointed directly at your head. You can get it in there, but there may be some rubbing if you can't angle the return "hose" out towards the driver side.

 

My proposed solution is this:

http://fp.vendaria.com/vpop/VpopViewer.html?uid=202270570&iid=AddpfzvImumvmKvJJIIKfwKILumLKv&bg=FFFFFF&nm=BZOpener&err=0&title=&pf=t&fr=t

 

I'll use a small piece of return line from my old pump and this fitting to angle it away from the head. Don't know when i'll get a chance to try it out. I was looking for a 45* fitting, but couldn't find it. Hope this 90* fitting works.:surrender:

[Cupid 10]

I looked at my pump in the box and the tube where you attach the return line pipes straight out the back below where the pressure line screws in.

 

Exactly. That's the problem. When trying to put that return line on (actually, I put the return line on the pump before putting it in) the pump, the return "tube" sticks out the back of the saginaw pointed directly at your head. You can get it in there, but there may be some rubbing if you can't angle the return "hose" out towards the driver side.

 

My proposed solution is this:

http://fp.vendaria.com/vpop/VpopViewer.html?uid=202270570&iid=AddpfzvImumvmKvJJIIKfwKILumLKv&bg=FFFFFF&nm=BZOpener&err=0&title=&pf=t&fr=t

 

I'll use a small piece of return line from my old pump and this fitting to angle it away from the head. Don't know when i'll get a chance to try it out. I was looking for a 45* fitting, but couldn't find it. Hope this 90* fitting works.:surrender:

[Big Secz 26]

Thanks for the heads up. Let me know how it works out. This way I can get the parts I need before I install my pump.

[Big Secz 26]

Thanks for the heads up. Let me know how it works out. This way I can get the parts I need before I install my pump.

[Cupid 10]

Big,

Good news and bad news.

 

Bad: I made a serious mistake. I sent the pump back to Mustangs Plus without measuring the diameter of the pulley. I think it's 4 5/8. Could you measure yours for us?

 

Good:

I found a pump that may work a lot better for 1/3 the price of Borgeson's pump.

[Cupid 10]

Big,

Good news and bad news.

 

Bad: I made a serious mistake. I sent the pump back to Mustangs Plus without measuring the diameter of the pulley. I think it's 4 5/8. Could you measure yours for us?

 

Good:

I found a pump that may work a lot better for 1/3 the price of Borgeson's pump.

[Big Secz 26]

So today I was finally able to try and tackle swapping my stock p/s pump with the Saginaw. I really didn't run into any major issues with this.

 

First thing to note, I had to pick up two grade five - 7/16 x 3" long bolts. The ones that came with the pump were too long.

 

Next after I got the pump installed I had to purchase a shorter p/s belt. Keep in mind I'm running alluminum pulleys so I was already running a shorter than stock belt, and I still had to get an even shorter belt with this pump.

 

So the install is pretty straight forward. After test fitting the bracket, I took it off and mounted it to the pump first.

 

I attached all the p/s lines to the back of the pump and then mounted the pump and bracket together to the head. NOTE: with this setup the pump mounts to the head and NOT the water pump like with a stock bracket and pump setup.

 

All that is left for me to do is zip tie my p/s lines together to keep my return line away from my header, fill it up with p/s fluid and test her out. All of which I am hoping to do tomorrow morning.

 

I'm hoping this makes a big improvement compared to my old stock p/s pump setup. I noticed that the metal retun line coming out of the stock p/s pump was kinked in two spots and had a pin hole in it. So my pump needed to be replaced anyway.

 

I'll post pics tomorrow after everything is complete.

 

One thing to keep in mind when doing this install. Judging how easily the p/s lines mated up to the Saginaw pump compared to trying to get them to work with the stock pump, I recommend saving yourself the headache and just get the Saginaw pump from the start.

 

Also, the stock male fitting bolts right up to the back of the saginaw pump. So you can swap the female fitting on the Borgeson hose kit with the male fitting on the original hoses like I did (see previous posts in this thread) or you can spend the extra $20 for the Borgeson adapters.

http://www.cjponyparts.com/BORGESON-POWER-STEERING-HOSE-ADAPTER-FITTING-6AN-1965-1970/p/HW2866/

Edited June 14, 2011 by Big Secz

[Big Secz 26]

I finished everything up this morning and took her out for a test drive. Still not happy with the steering. There isn't much of an improvement at all over using the stock p/s pump.

 

It's hard to explain what is going on but I'll do my best. If the steering wheel is straight she drives pretty well. Turn the wheel two inches to the left or right and the wheel stays in that direction, doesn't return to center. So you are basically fighting the wheel. This is real bad when I hit a bump or dip in the road as my car will jut to one side or the other.

 

I am going to have to call Borgeson to see if they have any recommended alignment specs.

 

Here are pics of everything in the car.

[buening 63]

Sounds like every complaint I've read with this conversion.....steering not returning to center regardless of pump or alignment specs. Hopefully Borgeson can help you figure it out!!!!

[TexasEd 188]

Big Secz,

 

I've read that it takes some time to get the steering box broken in.

Did you ever get the the alignment issues resolved?

 

According to this site http://dazed.home.bresnan.net/suspension101.html#3 the factory specs are not good for these cars because Ford designed them for "passive driving on 1960s tires"

Regardless of your suspension configuration, DO NOT use Ford's alignment specs!!!!! When you go to have your car aligned, the shop will either punch your info into a computer or look it up in a book and, based on the year of your car, motor size and a few other things, they will get Ford’s alignment tolerances. There are several problems with these numbers. First, the range on them is too vast. If a Mustang is aligned using Ford’s specs and one side has the factory minimum and other side the factory maximum, the car will wander and not hold the road very well at all. So, the first and most important fact to aligning a Mustang correctly is there should be no more than .25 degrees difference between the driver’s side and passenger’s side for the same type of measurement. In other words, caster on the driver’s side needs to be within .25 degrees of caster on the passenger’s side, but has no bearing on either of the camber settings. Example, if the caster on the driver’s side is + 2.5 and the camber is -.25 degrees, then the setting for the passenger’s side caster needs to be between + 2.25 and + 2.75, and the camber needs to be set between 0 and -.5, keeping in mind that .25 is the MAXIMUM difference and the closer to being the same the setting gets, the better. The second problem with Ford’s specs is they were designed for passive driving and 1960’s tires. This is evident in the fact that Ford’s specs allow for positive camber. The third thing you need to realize is that aligning any classic Mustang, but especially a first generation one (‘64.5-‘66), is not as simple as tighten this or loosen a bolt or two. First generation Mustangs use shims to set the alignment. When you change caster, it will affect the camber settings and so forth. Also, depending on the condition of the car and the way things are set up, some settings may not be achievable, so a range of acceptable specs needs to be given to the alignment technician, along with the order of importance so that the correct compromises are made, should the need arise. The following are performance alignment specs for a classic Mustang. I recommend printing out the info specific to your year of car and take it into the alignment shop.

 

Here are there recommended settings:

Please align to these specs “1967-1970 Mustang, Falcon & Cougar Performance Alignment with or without Shelby dropâ€.

 

These specifications are in order of importance.

 

1. NO more than .25 degrees difference between driver’s side and passenger’s side.

 

2. +2.0 to +3.5 degrees caster.

 

3. -.5 to 0 degrees camber. No positive camber, please. There is no problem having a slight variation from driver’s side to passenger’s side to account for the crown in the road.

 

4. 1/16" to 1/8†toe in

 

 

You might want to try to contact the author of that site and see what he says before you take any more steps.

 

The last time I drove my car it was like you described, all over the place and made you look like you were driving drunk.

 

I plan to refurb or replace my steering box, hopefully keep the same pump and also replace the rubber bushings on the control arms with roller bearings when I get into my suspension.

[Big Secz 26]

I contacted Borgeson and they said that this problem "can usually be remedied by increasing the positive caster to 3-5 degrees."

 

I believe someone else posted previously on this thread that they were told the same thing, but I do not konw if they every had it realigned and if it helped.

 

So it looks like I'll be headed back to the alignment shop. This is the type of thing they need to tell you in the instructions so you can get the alignment done right the first time.

[Oz69fan 10]

Big Secz, Nice photos of your installation.

 

Sorry to see that you are not happy with the Borgeson set up.

 

I have the full kit including the saginaw pump here waiting to be installed on the Grande, but very reluctant to have it fitted now. Bugger!

 

The research i did before ordering the borgeson unit was all good with happy owners. Maybe it is better suited to the earlier model Mustangs?

 

Looks like i will go to plan b and get the TCP Rack and Pinion

 

Please keep us informed of how it all progresses.

 

Are there any happy Borgeson owners out there with 69 70 Mustangs?

 

Rod.

[Big Secz 26]

Big Secz, Nice photos of your installation.

 

Sorry to see that you are not happy with the Borgeson set up.

 

I have the full kit including the saginaw pump here waiting to be installed on the Grande, but very reluctant to have it fitted now. Bugger!

 

The research i did before ordering the borgeson unit was all good with happy owners. Maybe it is better suited to the earlier model Mustangs?

 

Looks like i will go to plan b and get the TCP Rack and Pinion

 

Please keep us informed of how it all progresses.

 

Are there any happy Borgeson owners out there with 69 70 Mustangs?

 

Rod.

 

 

I contacted them through FB and got a different person and they pretty much say the same thing, 4-5 degrees of positive caster will "get it returning nice and tracking great". If you are on FB you can see this infor I posted on Borgeson's wall.

 

I'm trying now to find someone that has aligned their car to these specs to see if it helps. If it does, it's still a huge savings of a TCP R&P setup.

[NJ_Bob 10]

I contacted Borgeson and they said that this problem "can usually be remedied by increasing the positive caster to 3-5 degrees."

 

I believe someone else posted previously on this thread that they were told the same thing, but I do not konw if they every had it realigned and if it helped.

 

So it looks like I'll be headed back to the alignment shop. This is the type of thing they need to tell you in the instructions so you can get the alignment done right the first time.

 

This exact same thing came up on Vintage-Mustang.com & they also said make it at least 4 degrees positive caster to help it return to center.

[Big Secz 26]

This exact same thing came up on Vintage-Mustang.com & they also said make it at least 4 degrees positive caster to help it return to center.

 

Someone else posted on this thread about the caster as well. But I can't seem to find anyone that has actually done it to see if it did in fact make a difference or not.

 

I'm hoping to get to the alignment shop this week if the weather holds out.

[erblo 10]

I have mine set at 4.5 degrees positive caster, still have this problem. I can't get any more caster without interference with the fender.

 

Not sure what to do at this point, suffice to say I'm regretting this big waste of money. I'm tired of dealing with it right now, eventually I'll pull it out and try exchanging it again.