Group Wisdom wanted on non-technical issue

[foothilltom 33]

Hey guys, my apologies in advance for posting a totally non-technical question here. I value the input of the folks here and would be grateful to hear your opinions on an issue I'm having with a long-time member of this forum.

 

(I've already told the other party that I'd be willing to be bound by the collective wisdom of this group in our little disagreement).

 

In a nutshell, I bought a used 69 console from a member here back in September. I paid around $300 including UPS insurance. The seller shipped the item in a timely fashion and was very helpful and cheerful through the whole process.

 

Unfortunately, the console arrived totally destroyed. The plastic portion was shattered beyond all repair. The seller double-boxed the item (making an honest attempt to keep it safe in transit) but there was room for the console to shift around in the box. I'm no shipping expert, but this thing was obviously pretty fragile and required lots of support to keep it immobile. I'm also fairly sure our pals at UPS treated it with their usual disdain.

 

I informed the seller (sent pictures and all) and he was as bummed as I was. As the shipper, he made a claim to UPS based on the insured full value. (UPS would not talk to me about the claim even though I paid for the insurance).

 

UPS picked up the broken console from me and, weeks later, denied the claim. The seller appealed and was denied again. It's been about 2 months now.

 

I have asked the seller to refund my $300 over time (half now, half after the holidays since money is tight). The seller's position is to "share" the cost with me as UPS is to blame for the damage in his opinion and won't accept responsibility.

 

The seller is a nice guy and I really hate this situation. I obviously don't feel like I should have to pay $150 for nothing, but I'm willing to accept the wisdom of this forum since you probably all have experiences like mine.

 

Thanks for your input. Again, apologies for airing this here, but the transaction began here so I figure it's appropriate to settle it here.

 

Tom

[bcorbin 10]

What reason did UPS give for denying the claim?

[6T9Mach1 12]

It sucks being out $150, but a split cost is probably the best deal you are going to get. 1/2 is better than nothing. Just require your seller to not ship UPS the next time I guess. Sorry that you are in a no win situation.

[ccobra70 10]

If I had to guess ups denied the claim b/c they did not pack it and yall did not pay the extra cash (which is very high) for them to do it, that being said he did not send you a broke dash or did not pack it tight enough on purpose, so the shoe could have been on the other foot just as easy, If it were me I would try to lean on ups again maybe some upper mgmt. if that dosent work then I would split the cost with him, b/c he is out just like you are from something 3 party, just a scenario what if your money order to him got lost and you had no recipt but you sent it, sure would be nice on his part if he would split that with you even though it wasnt his fault. and these are just my thoughts I try and put myself on the other side also when im in question. my opinion is prob. worth exacly what you paid for it (nothing) but hope that helps!!

[bnickel 10,004]

i'm the other member and i share Tom's disdain over the experience but i packaged the console as i thought appropriate even double boxing it as Tom has already explained and i thought that was adequate. i didn't include any other packing inside the box but only end of the console was able to shift at all and only a couple of inches up and down. according to what UPS is now telling me it "should" have had 6 inches of freespace on all sides and been packed with foam or bubble wrap which would have made the box about 4 times the size it was and would have easily doubled (or more) the shipping cost.

 

Also when Tom recieved the console he went out of the country for over a month and did not inspect the package until he returned, which honestly, i think should have been done before he left because the time it took to file the claim is most likely working against us at this point, however this all in hindsight and at the time i thought everything was fine since he didn't immediatley email me and tell me there was something wrong, so i assumed it had arrived fine and didn't think any more about it until over a month later. again, this is all in hindsight at this point now.

 

When UPS denied the claim, or rather the company that now handles UPS' claims, i appealed the decision and it was denied again, i have yet to hear anything back from them on the last appeal. If UPS turns around and pays the claim i will obviously refund Tom the entire amount but if UPS continues to deny the claim I asked Tom if he would split the amount with me since UPS destroyed the console and I packaged it in a manner that "should" have been adequate had they no so blatantly and obviously mistreated it. just so everyone is aware the console was not just broken it was shattered completely and utterly, someone at UPS obviously stepped on it or loaded it the bottom of bunch of boxes that weighed a couple hundred pounds or more.

 

I don't think it is fair for Tom to be out $300 but i also don't think it is fair that I be out the console either since it was obviously neither of our faults but rather UPS' fault who won't own up to their end of the deal, that is why I suggested and Tom paid for the insurance after all. i'm not one of those kind of guys who would say "you bought insurance on the package and if they won't pay up then too bad" i just can't be a dick like that but i also don't think it's fair that either one of us get's totally shafted either.

 

So now everyone has both sides of this, you guys decide what should happen next, should UPS continue to deny the claim. I would like to add though, that whatever decision is reached i can't pay Tom back anything until sometime in January since I'm disabled and only get paid about $975 month so money is tight for us, especially with Christmas in only a month and we have an 11 year old daughter.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

it now looks even worse, though i'm not sure how it got that way. i don't know if Tom (highly doubtful) broke it some more to help with the claim or if UPS did it (this seems most likely to me)when they shipped it to the company that handles the insurance claims but there is are 2 pieces that are intact at all now the console box and the top panel piece almost everything else is in really small pieces now. so there really is nothing left that is repairable so it is totally unusable

Edited November 23, 2009 by bnickel

[02Lightning 10]

Man....I think the fight is between foothilltom and ups, I can't see that bnickle did anything wrong. That is very nice of him to offer you $150.

[Jayru 17]

What did Bnickel pay for the console in the first place/how did he acquire it?

 

My point being... If Bnickel got the thing for free out of a parts car or only bought it for say $50 at a swap meet, etc. and was trying to make a profit on it, why should Tom be out half ($150) of the marked up value for an item he never even/could use?

 

I see Bnickel's point about the package sitting for over a month, which most likely is playing a part in UPS denying the claim, but for a fair compromise in my eyes... the true value (what Bnickel actually paid) should only be what he keeps and the rest of Tom's money should be returned to him. Obviously this requires Bnickel to be completely honest about the actual price.

 

But i think that's a good deal considering the law (if it came to that) would be on Tom's side.

[Ltnrisk 104]

Price markup cannot be factored in this dispute since the buyer agreed to the cost. Therefore the dash cost $300 and splitting it is about the best resolution since you would not get a better deal dealing with a parts company. The only thing you can gain from this experience is to not use UPS if they cannot honor their insurance claims.

 

And this is more of an ethical dispute rather than a law dispute.

[foothilltom 33]

Hey guys, I do appreciate the comments. To 02Lightning, you should know that UPS cannot (by law so they say) even talk to me about this claim. I paid for the shipping and insurance, but their customer is bnickel (the seller). I tried originally to do just that and was politely told this back on 11-4:

 

Dear Thomas,

 

I received your claims question about tracking number 1ZR170330367818670. You will need to contact the company or person that sent the package for the final resolution of the claim. I am unable to provide claim information to a receiver or third party. If this shipment was sent on your behalf through a UPS Store location, Authorized Shipping Outlet, or Commercial Counter; this retail location is considered the shipper.

 

I apologize that I cannot help you any further with this matter. If the shipper has any questions about the claim, please ask them to contact us directly.

 

Please contact us if you need any additional assistance.

 

Lilac Z.

UPS Customer Service

 

Anywho, I want it to be clear that I don't blame bnickel for anything. I think he acted in good faith the whole time. My only issue/question is what is right now.

 

I think Jayru is onto an interesting topic. Presuming bnickel didn't pay $300 for this, I think it would be fair to compensate me for my losses keeping in mind how much he is out.

 

Tom

[69again 10]

Paypal example, The seller is responsible for getting the item to the buyer in the condition it was described as in the listing even if no insurance was purchased. Paypal would refund the buyer. Insurance was purchased by the seller on behalf of the buyer, eventhough, the buyer actually paid for it. Hence, the response from the shipper. Rulling, Buyer would be refunded from seller and seller would collect from shipper that cause damage. In this case, the delay in inspecting for damages and the untimely filing of a claim contributed to the shipper denying responsibility. Shippers require inspection and claims to be in a specific time frame. If buyer accepted the delivery, ie ackowledge receipt of the item it is the buyers responsibility to inspect and report damages in a timely manner. Since the buyer did not report timely, the seller has no recorse with the shipper. Judge Judy would probably find in favor of the seller. If packaged really well, I don't think both parties were at falt, however, if both parties agree to 50/50, Judge Judy would be kinder in her closing remarks.

 

On a side note, I purchased one of these from Mustangs Unlimited. It was packaged really well, and it still had a little crack on one of the edges, fortunately it is not noticeable.

[69cobraman 10]

I think I would try upper management on UPS and if I didn't get a suitable answer then it is small claims and or Better Business Bureau. Shouldn't lay down on UPS.

[foothilltom 33]

Well, I'm glad I asked because I definitely was pretty much alone in my thinking. My wife tells me this all the time.

 

I guess I should be glad that bnickel offered to split the costs and not stick me with the whole enchilada.

 

It's true that I left the country for 3 weeks. Bad timing that. The box was definitely NOT crushed from the outside so I thought nothing of keeping it in the box while I was away.

 

There are probably several morals to this story and I will be wiser next time.

 

Bryan, as I said to you before, I'll accept the judgment of this group over my own position.

 

Happy t-giving to all.

 

Tom

[69RestoRod 10]

Shipping companies beat the hell out of stuff. Their goal is to get it from point A to B as quickly as thye can while attempting to make money if not just break even. I worked the counter of a USPS contract for a while and I gotta say you need to wrap the hell out of something to assure it's safety. Part of the time its accidental dropping of packages and other times it's a carrier who's already two hours late cause of *BS reason here* and stuff is getting crammed and toss everywhere. Or the poor drivers who get someone else loading their truck like they were blind and everything topples.

 

1. I think something as fragile as the console should have been bubble wrapped and surrounded with peanuts. The buyer is getting a deal on an original console, shipping cost is part of the hassle of getting it home, not part of the item's price.

 

2. Something as fragile as a console should have also been inspected when delivered. There's no time lapse to assume the receiver broke it, and you've got the UPS guy standing there to witness the opening of damaged product. I've had our UPS guy at work suggest we open things before he leave cause it appeared that it could be damaged, and most weren't even insured items. This also gives the seller the chance to know there is an issue before he spends the extra money he just made.

 

I see a bit of fault on both sides and a 50/50 deal sounds fair. But that doesn't mean it's not a tough pill to swallow. Maybe the remaining piece can be the starting point for something custom. It's not like Tom's GT isn't quite unique to start with.

 

I've been burnt for 100% on ebay items that were damaged in shipping but the buyer didn't insure. It was only $50 but ebay would have pulled it out of my account since I couldn't supply a replacement item. It wasn't worth my time, the hassle, and the negative feedback. And it was a heavy A/c Crank pulley heavily wrapped in newspaper but had been dropped and bent.

Edited November 24, 2009 by 69RestoRod

[Green69 10]

Wow, that console was brittle! Best of luck settling this. I like the Paypal idea... they cost a high percentage of the transaction, but it would be worth it in a case like this.

 

It looks like the armrest, ashtray, lighter and the top plate where the shifter pokes through might be sellable on eBay and could offset the cost to the buyer (he paid for the console, so it is his). Hey, if the chrome is good or decent, I could use the part that the seat belts plug into. Is it from an auto or manual car?

 

If this was purchased from a parts company or ebay, I would hold the seller fully liable because they should have taken an overabundance of care to package it securely. To fail that badly, I'm guessing it was poorly packaged. But, being fellow Mustang people who probably don't have so much experience shipping such large and fragile items, we should respect that the transaction was done in good faith.

 

If the insurance claim was denied specifically because of a lack of timeliness, I think the 50/50 split is quite fair. Otherwise, it'd be fair to me if the seller took more of the brunt of the loss. 3/4 returned to the buyer sounds fair to me. More important than money, however, is not walking away from this with bad feelings towards each other and the forum.. blah blah..

 

I totally second the suggestion of sending an email to someone high up at UPS. I had problems with Verizon that were not getting resolved until I sent an email to their VP of Media Relations. All of a sudden, they wanted to help their customer.

[S code 69 13]

It's a clear case of UPS being at fault in my opinion, if they take the insurance money then that means they were satisfied it was packed properly. in theory, the problem is they know for $300 you're not going to go after them . as a company UPS sucks.

 

In my opinion half is very fair, you both got screwed and neither one of you are at fault.

[coz 108]

I guess I'm in the minority here but if BNickel were a company he'd be on the hook for the full amount and I find little different here. Basically it's the seller's responsibility to ensure packaging is adequate and double boxing a 40 year dash IMO is not enough. Bubble wrap at the very least....

 

I sold my center console to Mad in NC a couple of years back and only because he had someone pick it up. I would not have trusted a shipper to deliver it w/o issues. It's not like UPS and their brethern are just now trashing packages....

 

If the seller did not insure the package then they should accept full responsibility. It would be gracious of Foothill to accept several payments to spread out the pain.

 

The one person who did nothing wrong (Foothill) is the one out at least $150 and still has no dash - certainly not right IMO.....

 

Also - IMO a buyer should NEVER pay for insurance. It's the sellers property until it arrives safely at the buyers place. Another reason to ALWAYS use Paypal or a CC. Paypal would stick BNickel with the full cost.....

Edited November 24, 2009 by coz

[02Lightning 10]

To 02Lightning, you should know that UPS cannot (by law so they say) even talk to me about this claim.

No, I didn't know that. I've never had to file a dispute with UPS. What is the reason for the claim denial?

[foothilltom 33]

Bnickel mentioned the reason for the denied claim was due to packaging technicalities (bubble wrap, peanuts, blah blah blah). I'm also sure my going to the Czech Republic for 3 weeks didn't help either.

 

UPS says their relationship is only with the shipper on claims, not the receiver (me). I paid extra for the insurance as I mentioned after we had arranged the price for the console, but UPS doesn't consider me the insured.

 

PayPal keeps coming up and I'm not sure if I'm getting the importance. I did use PayPal to pay Bnickel. Does that give us some additional recourse?

 

Obviously, I'd much prefer UPS pay up, but it just doesn't look like they're going to.

 

Tom

[SlimeGold 69 15]

I may be missing something but what does the insurance you paid extra money for cover??? I thought that was the whole reason to pay insurance..that it covered the full insured value of the item no matter what? I always thought the "safe" thing to do was purchase insurance, but now after seeing this, maybe not. The time delay of your claim may be the reason for this whole mess, but it should have been packed better also. I guess spliting the cost is a fair thing in this bad situation.

Edited November 24, 2009 by SlimeGold 69

[Jayru 17]

PayPal keeps coming up and I'm not sure if I'm getting the importance. I did use PayPal to pay Bnickel. Does that give us some additional recourse?

Tom

 

Yes, if you contact paypal and tell them you received a damaged product and now are not even in possession of said product (because it was returned to Bnickel). Paypal will investigate and most likely refund you 100% of your money...

 

I'm not trying to be a dick to Bnickel, honestly i don't know either of you (and you've both been helpful to me on the forum), but i just can't see Tom having to pay half for a broken product he never even used/has.

[bcorbin 10]

In a similar example, our company (on the west coast) buys an electronic component that costs about $1200 each from a company on the east coast. One shipment was supposed to contain 48 of these units but when the box arrived on our dock there were 8 units missing. This ended up sitting on a problem shelf for over a month before being handled. The box was damaged and the bottom appeared to have been broken open during shipping and re-taped (by UPS). The sender had to file the claim. UPS denied the claim and the shipping company had to eat the almost $10,000 loss. UPS said that the shipping container was not packaged correctly and the loss was due to that. In that case having seen the box I believe that to be true. Needless to say this company no longer uses UPS and does a much better job of packaging. I keep looking for these devices to show up on EBAY.

 

I believe that would be the normal way it would turn out. Nobody should have to pay for something they don't actually have. If Tom is willing to do any kind of a monetary split that is great but my opinion is he shouldn't have to pay for something he didn't actually get or get in the condition he paid for.

[S code 69 13]

When dealing with a business that's true, and you're going to pay to over pack an item. but in the case of private party transactions I think there is a gray area, we're not professionals at shipping and we assume the insurance we pay for will protect us.

 

Since UPS flaked out and both parties acted in good faith I don't see how you can expect one to assume all the risk . the only way to fully protect a big piece of 40 year old plastic would be to crate it in a wood box , unless paying for that was part of the deal and it wasn't done I see it as a shared loss.

[MAD IN NC 21]

jayru - you are a socialist. Idenpendent of what bnickel bought it for or sold it for - it has nothing to do with this transaction. Since I was out on the monte carlo brace I sent you - I would gladly accept a gratius gift of a beer or two but get your car going first! then we celebrate!

 

Coz - Glad I had somebody carry it

 

bnickel - sorry to hear about the disability

 

foothilton - sorry to hear about the whole mess....

 

Hope UPS get's back to you. I've been reeally lucky as I've shipped a cluster, glovebox and 8-9 bumpers from a 65 vette lately and no damage but the boxes in 30% of the case were totally destroyed!

[B-Man 11]

Can Bnickel possibly find a suitable replacement? It's really good to see people trying to work things out rather than slinging mud and vulgarities.

[Jayru 17]

jayru - you are a socialist. Idenpendent of what bnickel bought it for or sold it for - it has nothing to do with this transaction. Since I was out on the monte carlo brace I sent you - I would gladly accept a gratius gift of a beer or two but get your car going first! then we celebrate!

 

Hahaha! Now now... i would imagine sharing the burden 50/50 as you all suggest (distributing the shared loss) would be much more considered the Socialist view. One person getting all the money and the other shit out of luck is capitalism at it's finest my friend!

 

As far as the beers go... if i ever make it to NC or you to PA, you'll get them Comrade!