The vertues of originality

[bnickel 10,004]

Well I am late jumping in on this one. I for one am pretty much a original guy, but I do aprriciate the work that goes into all of the resto mod type cars. That being said, should I see a car turned into what I call a Circus wagon, over the top and it has the following numbers in it, G,R,Q or Z, I might shake my head. But again who the hell am I to say what you can do with your car? I can't say a thing............Please just don't make it to Gawdy! As a note I am looking for a pair of 15x7 or 15x8 US INDY mags, early style with the screw on caps. Like the ones on my high school car, 69 coupe. 70's style! I bought a 69 6 banger last fall as a driver and I am thinking of recreating my old car. I have the 14x7 front INDY's. 14's in front 15's in back, this is old school 70's..........

 

 

nowe thta's what i'm talking about right there. mod the hell outta the low end cars and restore the rarer cars to stock and the concours restore the really rare one. my 69 GT coupe is a mild restomod with shelby vert side scoops, 17" edelbrock 454 wheels, slightly modified 351w, stiffer springs and shocks and bigger front sway bar but it still looks like 1969 other than the wheels, right down to the completely stock but non original deluxe interior with high back buckets and non stock but original acapulco blue paint.

 

what really kills me though is that at the show i was at this past weekend my car got another award, it's gotten one at all but one show it's been to, and beat out a completely stock restored candyapple red 69 cj mach 1, and at the same show last year it beat out another red 69 mach 1 that was even more modified than my car. not sure why but for some reason the car show judges just seem to not like red 69 mach 1's so much...kinda weird really and the other thing that kills me is that both of those cars were built by pro restorers and my car was built by me. in feel really proud that my car has beat out a lot of really nice cars before but i can't really understand why...any way whatever, i don't really care so much about car show awards as i do just driving the car but it sure does feel nice to get them when it happens.

 

my feelings on the subject of stock vs modified is that at long as it looks like stock or fairly close to stock it's fine regardless of other mods. that's not to say that i don't absolutely love the full on pro-touring cars or the trailer queen concours restored cars but i like to drive my cars and anything that makes them more comfortable, handle better, be more efficent and/or more powerful, or just generally drive better than original is the kind of stuff i like as long as the car still looks stock or fairly close to stock is what i like the best.

 

when i start in on the 69 cougar i'm going to make it look like a 69 GT Cougar, which got dropped from the cougar line-up in 69. i have most of the specs for what would have been included in the GT equipment group for the 69 cougar which is basically the same as what the 69 mustang GT equipment included with a few exceptions and according to Marti there were some 4,000 69 cougars built with the GT equipment group even though they are not really GT cougars. my goal is to replicate what a 69 Cougar GT would have been if Mercury had made them the way they had intended to had they not dropped it from the line-up. however i'll also be adding lot's of aftermarket parts and build the car how i envision it would have been bought originally and modified over the years with stuff from the 60's, 70's, 80's 90's and now with an emphasis on the 70's, 90's and present.

 

i have a 69 ford muscle parts intake, a 1.19 venturi autolite 4100, several 70's ignition systems to choose from, 80's mustang GT bucket seats that will be recovered to resemble original 69 style upholstery, a TCP rack and pinion, a vintage Hone-O-Drive unit, a factory rear defogger, original OTC style cruise control setup, 70's XR7 leather wrapped sport steering wheel, original style tilt column, 68 mustang overhead console and other stock and early aftermarket type stuff plus i'll also add an original style front spoiler, eliminator hood scoop and ram air seal, hood pins, 69 cougar sport special rocker trim, TCP G-Bar rear suspension, custom Opentracker roller front end with coilovers, 69 T/A Boss 302 style front disc brakes, big 11" rear drums, trunk mounted luggage rack, original style trailer hitch and 15" GT wheels along with my 80's style 15" Riken mesh wheels and original style power windows. i may even add a shelby style roll bar and 4 point harnesses. the overall effect of the car will be that it was bought new and kept in nice condition with a long list of aftermarket and original style parts added throughout the years without losing the effect of an original looking car.

[Cinestang 10]

Here's my point of view.

 

Is your car an investment, or something for you to enjoy?

 

....

 

If it's something you've bought for your own enjoyment: Do whatever you'd like and don't look back. Who is this car for... you or someone else? Drive it, enjoy it, and ask the "stock is best" guys where their cars are.

 

Personally, I've come to the conclusion that I'm never going to sell my car. So why worry about resale value?

 

I do agree tho with a couple of points mentioned earlier:

- Try to avoid modifying the rare classics.

- Keep the mods tasteful. A classy modification will still be cool in 20 years. 22's, a huge wing, and spaceship-like colored lights won't.

 

I agree with all of these sentiments. I feel that the rarer the model trim (such as with an original 69-70 Boss 302, 429, Shelby or say a factory F/X drag car) the more one should avoid too much modification. I mean, if it's one of 3,000 or less cars in existence worldwide it really is something unique and rare.

 

However... I am not personally interested in owning an extremely rare model trim. I'm into these cars to enjoy my own as I like and drive it. That being the case, I have a very liberal view on modification and especially modernization to suit an owner's tastes. I agree that at a certain point you can modify and modernize a classic car to the point that it doesn't feel like you're driving a piece of history any longer but it really depends on what that feeling of "driving history" is to you.

 

For me it is simply owning the car, enjoying it and using it as a foundation for my tinkering and hotrodding ideas. Mustangs were practically designed on the premise of owner modification anyway.

 

I draw the line at bling, however. No wings, 22" chrome wheels, ugly paintjobs with crazy graphics, or pink fur interiors. Gack!

 

With the exception of extremely rare specials, I don't think there is anything wrong with it if you use any combination of skill, taste and ingenuity.

 

As for what my dream (read: pipe dream) modification ideas are, I feel they may upset some people but I had most of this rough plan in mind on paper with a stack of parts catalogs to back it up just before I sold my '69 in 2000:

 

-complete interior overhaul with modern sound deadening and carpet

-modernized heater system and R134A air conditioning put through an original factory A/C dashboard

-original looking AM/FM stereo with ipod connection and CD deck (anyone know if this is available?)

-modern Recaro seats

-Scroth/Simpson/whatever four or five-point racing harness

-mild roll cage with padding (haven't decided how extreme)

-Wimbledon White paintjob, no factory wing, no pinstripes, just a clean '69 WW coupe on Torq Thrust "D" wheels

-quarter roof badges removed and mount points ground off

-Retractable motorized antenna in factory location

-custom rear window glass with modern heating element inlaid (I always hated the way my old car fogged up)

-factory side view mirrors with heating elements installed

-doors and interior panels modified with 1968-69 Mercury Cougar XR7 power window modules and switches

-leather wrapped steering aftermarket wheel

-probably some kind of LoJack alarm system and a pager alert system

 

Drivetrain:

-custom engine mounts

-1984-1986 Mustang SVO or 1987-88 Thunderbird Turbocoupe 2.3L 4cyl iron block or 1980's Ford Motorsport 2.3L SVO "tall deck" block

-block modified to accept Volvo B23F DOHC cylinder head with rerouted water passages and revised springs and valves and a crapload of other custom routing and timing belt mods I won't get into here

-forged crank, forged rods, forged pistons (Wiseco, Probe, Eagle? Need some new catalogs to figure it out again)

-8.0:1-8.5:1 compression

-Holset HX35 turbocharger running 25-30lbs of boost (or perhaps a fully modern Garrett turbo)

-Dodge Turbo IV electronics (or full Megasquirt engine management)

-Spearco intercooler fitted somewhere up front in the grille

-goal of 450-500 streetable horsepower (and yes, I'm aware of the minor turbo lag I'll be getting with this. I fell in love with the way a Buick Grand National V6 takes a couple of seconds to build horsepower before it goes)

-transmission mounts to fit either Tremec TKO T-5 5-speed, Tremec T56 6-speed or Tremec 6060 6-speed manual transmission

-full Total Control coilover suspension system and frame bracing

-Total Control rack and pinion power steering conversion

-Torq Thrust "D" wheels that can fit a set of small 2 piston Brembo disc brakes and calipers front and rear. No larger than 17". Prefer wide 16" rims.

 

-And I haven't figured out how feasible this is or even how much benefit it would have for a 40+ year old car for handling but if I went so far as to do all of the other custom work:

 

Transplant a 99-04 Cobra IRS into the 1969 rear anywhere between 3.27:1, 3.55:1 or 3.73:1 gear ratios. Haven't yet done the math to figure out which is best. I'll probably stick with a regular 9" rear with a limited slip.

 

Again, all of that together would be horrendously expensive-- not to mention being on the extreme end of the classic modification spectrum but it's really the only hobby car project that interests me any more because it's the one I was never able to do when I had my first chance.

 

I'm very set on getting another plain 1969 fastback to do as much of this as possible after ten years of holding off, so call it a very long term (if admittedly nutty) goal :)

Edited May 17, 2009 by Cinestang

[bnickel 10,004]

I agree with all of these sentiments. I feel that the rarer the model trim (such as with an original 69-70 Boss 302, 429, Shelby or say a factory F/X drag car) the more one should avoid too much modification. I mean, if it's one of 3,000 or less cars in existence worldwide it really is something unique and rare.

 

However... I am not personally interested in owning an extremely rare model trim. I'm into these cars to enjoy my own as I like and drive it. That being the case, I have a very liberal view on modification and especially modernization to suit an owner's tastes. I agree that at a certain point you can modify and modernize a classic car to the point that it doesn't feel like you're driving a piece of history any longer but it really depends on what that feeling of "driving history" is to you.

 

For me it is simply owning the car, enjoying it and using it as a foundation for my tinkering and hotrodding ideas. Mustangs were practically designed on the premise of owner modification anyway.

 

I draw the line at bling, however. No wings, 22" chrome wheels, ugly paintjobs with crazy graphics, or pink fur interiors. Gack!

 

With the exception of extremely rare specials, I don't think there is anything wrong with it if you use any combination of skill, taste and ingenuity.

 

As for what my dream (read: pipe dream) modification ideas are, I feel they may upset some people but I had most of this rough plan in mind on paper with a stack of parts catalogs to back it up just before I sold my '69 in 2000:

 

-complete interior overhaul with modern sound deadening and carpet

-modernized heater system and R134A air conditioning put through an original factory A/C dashboard

-original looking AM/FM stereo with ipod connection and CD deck (anyone know if this is available?)

-modern Recaro seats

-Scroth/Simpson/whatever four or five-point racing harness

-mild roll cage with padding (haven't decided how extreme)

-Wimbledon White paintjob, no factory wing, no pinstripes, just a clean '69 WW coupe on Torq Thrust "D" wheels

-quarter roof badges removed and mount points ground off

-Retractable motorized antenna in factory location

-custom rear window glass with modern heating element inlaid (I always hated the way my old car fogged up)

-factory side view mirrors with heating elements installed

-doors and interior panels modified with 1968-69 Mercury Cougar XR7 power window modules and switches

-leather wrapped steering aftermarket wheel

-probably some kind of LoJack alarm system and a pager alert system

 

Drivetrain:

-custom engine mounts

-1984-1986 Mustang SVO or 1987-88 Thunderbird Turbocoupe 2.3L 4cyl iron block or 1980's Ford Motorsport 2.3L SVO "tall deck" block

-block modified to accept Volvo B23F DOHC cylinder head with rerouted water passages and revised springs and valves and a crapload of other custom routing and timing belt mods I won't get into here

-forged crank, forged rods, forged pistons (Wiseco, Probe, Eagle? Need some new catalogs to figure it out again)

-8.0:1-8.5:1 compression

-Holset HX35 turbocharger running 25-30lbs of boost (or perhaps a fully modern Garrett turbo)

-Dodge Turbo IV electronics (or full Megasquirt engine management)

-Spearco intercooler fitted somewhere up front in the grille

-goal of 450-500 streetable horsepower (and yes, I'm aware of the minor turbo lag I'll be getting with this. I fell in love with the way a Buick Grand National V6 takes a couple of seconds to build horsepower before it goes)

-transmission mounts to fit either Tremec TKO T-5 5-speed, Tremec T56 6-speed or Tremec 6060 6-speed manual transmission

-full Total Control coilover suspension system and frame bracing

-Total Control rack and pinion power steering conversion

-Torq Thrust "D" wheels that can fit a set of small 2 piston Brembo disc brakes and calipers front and rear. No larger than 17". Prefer wide 16" rims.

 

-And I haven't figured out how feasible this is or even how much benefit it would have for a 40+ year old car for handling but if I went so far as to do all of the other custom work:

 

Transplant a 99-04 Cobra IRS into the 1969 rear anywhere between 3.27:1, 3.55:1 or 3.73:1 gear ratios. Haven't yet done the math to figure out which is best. I'll probably stick with a regular 9" rear with a limited slip.

 

Again, all of that together would be horrendously expensive-- not to mention being on the extreme end of the classic modification spectrum but it's really the only hobby car project that interests me any more because it's the one I was never able to do when I had my first chance.

 

I'm very set on getting another plain 1969 fastback to do as much of this as possible after ten years of holding off, so call it a very long term (if admittedly nutty) goal :)

 

you and i have similar plans, except a lot of the stuff you're talking about doing, specifically the SVO 2.3 Turbo motor stuff i'd like to do to a mustang II hatchback with T-tops. basically i would like to do most everything you have listed to both my 69 cougar (except the motor) and the T-top II (including the motor). my plans for a cool II would be to actually build it for daughter with her help and make it a really cool car for her to drive. i'd start with preferably a 74-78 Mach 1 or Cobra II T-top car and restore it to look basically stock with the exception of all the Cobra II exterior bits, even if it's a mach 1, and a nice set of 15" wheels and tires that are semi stock looking. i'd add the 2.3 turbo motor possibly with a dual plug ranger head but keep it basically stock and i'd add an overdrive automatic too. i'd keep the rest of the car basically stock except for some better front seats and a stereo

[Cinestang 10]

you and i have similar plans, except a lot of the stuff you're talking about doing, specifically the SVO 2.3 Turbo motor stuff i'd like to do to a mustang II hatchback with T-tops. basically i would like to do most everything you have listed to both my 69 cougar (except the motor) and the T-top II (including the motor). my plans for a cool II would be to actually build it for daughter with her help and make it a really cool car for her to drive. i'd start with preferably a 74-78 Mach 1 or Cobra II T-top car and restore it to look basically stock with the exception of all the Cobra II exterior bits, even if it's a mach 1, and a nice set of 15" wheels and tires that are semi stock looking. i'd add the 2.3 turbo motor possibly with a dual plug ranger head but keep it basically stock and i'd add an overdrive automatic too. i'd keep the rest of the car basically stock except for some better front seats and a stereo

 

Adding the SVO/T-Bird turbo engine to a Mustang II for your daughter sounds like a great project and it's very popular with those cars. Left mostly stock those engines can be a heap of fun and won't get you into too much trouble. I'd highly stress changing the seats and especially the seatbelts in a daily driven car that old. I don't know much about the dual plug head conversion. I couldn't find too many advantages to doing it when what I was looking for was significantly increased flow characteristics, hence a heavily ported SOHC head, Esslinger aluminum head or the tricky Volvo head swaps. Please let us know what happens with that project if you decide to go ahead with it :)

 

Putting the SVO engine into an original Mustang is just something I haven't seen many people do. I love the way an SVO delivers its power but I love the 1969 chassis far more than the Fox platform. To be honest I've occasionally thought I might just build up a 302 or 351 but I really like the 2.3 turbo and unlike many four cylinders it has proven potential to run with all but the largest of V8 setups. It would only be slightly more involved than doing an 5.0 EFI and T-5 manual conversion-- and with a better turbo the part-throttle drivability should be fine. It'll be different, to be sure, but if I have the money to do all of that I might get myself a second Mustang coupe with another Holley 650'd 302 just for nostalgia.

 

Still, I'd never start a project like this with a rare option or special low production Mustang or one that had a very significant racing history.

Edited May 17, 2009 by Cinestang

[bnickel 10,004]

Adding the SVO/T-Bird turbo engine to a Mustang II for your daughter sounds like a great project and it's very popular with those cars. Left mostly stock those engines can be a heap of fun and won't get you into too much trouble. I'd highly stress changing the seats and especially the seatbelts in a daily driven car that old. I don't know much about the dual plug head conversion. I couldn't find too many advantages to doing it when what I was looking for was significantly increased flow characteristics, hence a heavily ported SOHC head, Esslinger aluminum head or the tricky Volvo head swaps. Please let us know what happens with that project if you decide to go ahead with it :)

 

Putting the SVO engine into an original Mustang is just something I haven't seen many people do. I love the way an SVO delivers its power but I love the 1969 chassis far more than the Fox platform. To be honest I've occasionally thought I might just build up a 302 or 351 but I really like the 2.3 turbo and unlike many four cylinders it has proven potential to run with all but the largest of V8 setups. It would only be slightly more involved than doing an 5.0 EFI and T-5 manual conversion-- and with a better turbo the part-throttle drivability should be fine. It'll be different, to be sure, but if I have the money to do all of that I might get myself a second Mustang coupe with another Holley 650'd 302 just for nostalgia.

 

Still, I'd never start a project like this with a rare option or special low production Mustang or one that had a very significant racing history.

 

 

if i can ever find the right car and when i have the right money....LOL, i'll get started on building it but she is going to have to put a lot of work into it as well. i want her to have a nice fun, cool car to drive through high school and college that gets good mileage and has decent power but not enough to get her into any real trouble, hence the auto trans, but most of all it needs to be dependable. i had a 78 II coupe that was a great driver, it ended up getting hit by a flatbed truck though and totally wiped out, i think that was also the start of all my back problems too, however that little car held up really well to the hit considering what it got it hit by and how fast the A$$hole was going, estimated to be between 35 and 40 mph. it had the standard 70hp 2.3 with auto trans, PS and AC so it was a gutless little pig, but i could throw it into any corner effortlessly just about as fast that little car could go.:shifty:

[RogerC 136]

I've had 14 mustangs since my first in high school 30 years ago. My current 69 I've had since 83. I've never had any issues with modifying one. My plans for the 69 are here: http://forums.stangnet.com/vbpicgallery.php?do=view&g=2367. I enjoy a nice restored original but I like modified versions better. I probably would even do minor but reversable mods on a boss or mach but not go wild like I am with mine (2 option car - 302 & tinted glass). However my desire for modding is based on my desire to make or otherwise fabricate. In my case, I'm not changing the body lines cause I feel that's a big part of the cars character (hence why I don't like a cowl hood on a 69 or 70). I'm also maintaining the dash design though modifying it some. My 69 has survived several moves and a bankruptcy along with other hard times (including my present unemployment) where I've sold off my other mustangs so this one's not going anywhere while I'm still alive. These cars were meant to be driven and I do lose some respect for someone who never or rarely drives theirs. I look at it like there's nothing that can't be replaced or repaired so why worry about it, DRIVE IT!

[Pakrat 1,043]

I look at it like there's nothing that can't be replaced or repaired so why worry about it, DRIVE IT!

 

That is true and I fully intend to drive mine as often as when it was just a 10 footer if not even more often to make up for lost time once I get it back on the road but I can honetly say that nothing is more heart wrenching than having a careless punk total your car and destroy your dream or at least put that dream on hold for 4 1/2 years and counting. So while I don't agree with it I totally get why some folks trailer and rarely drive because no matter how careful you are with it, it's usually not you that you have to worry about. When you invest so much time and money into building a car it's easy to lose sight of why you built it in the first place even if time and money is all you have much less someone who can barely afford it. If that were to happen to me again with any less than at least 10 years of non stop pleasure I'm not sure I wouldn't just hang up my hat and take the money this time. It's been a long and sometimes fun road but it was not the time frame I had in mind for a full restoration at all.

[RogerC 136]

Pak,

I understand the apprehension but I've learned to be patient so down time is not an issue for me. Mine last moved under its own power in 1990. I almost had it on the road again in 92. I ended up tearing it down again cause I wanted some things done right and its been sitting since. I had to shelf the project for a while due to family needs and I picked up other stangs to drive here and there. Over the past year I've been working on it alot and was looking forward to it possibly moving under its own power again later this year till the investment company that owned my employer sold off the company assets to an out-of-state company 2 months ago. Bye bye job. While I'm off it is getting some attention but I can't spend any money on it. Believe me, I'm not saying I wouldn't be massively bummed out if someone trashed it cause I would but I think I'd probably just pick up the pieces and start rebuilding it again after some mourning time.