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S code 69

The vertues of originality

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I'm not trying to start a fight here, I know the majority of the members here are more into modification than originality. I think for some people, newcomers mainly this is a subject worth discussion, maybe it has been and I missed it.

 

I'm an originality snob and I admit it, I'm not knocking those who aren't all I want to do is say , think about it before you modify a classic car . cars I passed on 10 years ago are collectable today, if you have a car you don't think is desirable don't be so sure, if you do have a desirable car in my opinion it's a waste to kidderize it.

 

I would just like to stir a little thought in those who are deciding what to do with their car, if you're big into mods then fine it's your car. just remember originality pays, the more original the more your car is the more it's worth and in time the harder it will be to return it to original, provided you didn't screw it up so bad it's trashed. I'm not a purist myself actually, I'm putting 69 Shelby wheels on my 69 Mach 1, I was going to put Magnums even though they're not proper, this type of thing is easy to correct.

 

What makes a classic is the bad steering, the sucking sound of the 4 bbl, the poor handling and the look of the way the car left the dealer to me. for less money than I could screw my up my car for I could have a new Mustang that would be better than any old one. it's the nostalgia, that's what it's all about and I don't want to lose it by changing what Ford made in 1969. that's my 2 cents, I know I'm right about the value but maybe I'm in the minority on the nostalgia.

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I'm not trying to start a fight here, I know the majority of the members here are more into modification than originality. I think for some people, newcomers mainly this is a subject worth discussion, maybe it has been and I missed it.

 

I'm an originality snob and I admit it, I'm not knocking those who aren't all I want to do is say , think about it before you modify a classic car . cars I passed on 10 years ago are collectable today, if you have a car you don't think is desirable don't be so sure, if you do have a desirable car in my opinion it's a waste to kidderize it.

 

I would just like to stir a little thought in those who are deciding what to do with their car, if you're big into mods then fine it's your car. just remember originality pays, the more original the more your car is the more it's worth and in time the harder it will be to return it to original, provided you didn't screw it up so bad it's trashed. I'm not a purist myself actually, I'm putting 69 Shelby wheels on my 69 Mach 1, I was going to put Magnums even though they're not proper, this type of thing is easy to correct.

 

What makes a classic is the bad steering, the sucking sound of the 4 bbl, the poor handling and the look of the way the car left the dealer to me. for less money than I could screw my up my car for I could have a new Mustang that would be better than any old one. it's the nostalgia, that's what it's all about and I don't want to lose it by changing what Ford made in 1969. that's my 2 cents, I know I'm right about the value but maybe I'm in the minority on the nostalgia.

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I know my car is more rare if I would have put the original 6 cyl with air back in but that would'nt be a blast to drive.I did save the original 6 and trans in the corner of my garage but I have no plans to ever install it back myself after I'm long gone and the kids decide to sell they can give the original to the buyer if he wants it.I think that almost any mod could be changed back to original if need be.I built my car for ME and noone else if you dont like my Silver Jade hoodscoop and my gloss hood the next guy will love it.:scared:

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I know my car is more rare if I would have put the original 6 cyl with air back in but that would'nt be a blast to drive.I did save the original 6 and trans in the corner of my garage but I have no plans to ever install it back myself after I'm long gone and the kids decide to sell they can give the original to the buyer if he wants it.I think that almost any mod could be changed back to original if need be.I built my car for ME and noone else if you dont like my Silver Jade hoodscoop and my gloss hood the next guy will love it.:scared:

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That isn't really what I'm talking about, it's the R&P steering, fuel injected late model engines, roll cages, tubbing and those things. if you just must do it then fine it's your car , if you're on the fence give it some hard thought if the car isn't scewed up already. there is originality to the degree of the build sheet, then there is originality to it could have come from Ford in 1969, that's me, some might figure I take liberties and screw a car up by adding options or other factory upgrades, maybe they're right but I can live with it.

 

It just seems there is WAY more information and discussion on all the mustang forums I've checked out about modification than original restoration, I know my Mopars so that's easy for me but my Mach 1 has been a challenge to get factual accurate restoration advice. I'd wouldn't want to see someone not restore their car to originality because it seems nobody else is, it could be discouraging for someone new to the hobby and I would hate to see that.

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That isn't really what I'm talking about, it's the R&P steering, fuel injected late model engines, roll cages, tubbing and those things. if you just must do it then fine it's your car , if you're on the fence give it some hard thought if the car isn't scewed up already. there is originality to the degree of the build sheet, then there is originality to it could have come from Ford in 1969, that's me, some might figure I take liberties and screw a car up by adding options or other factory upgrades, maybe they're right but I can live with it.

 

It just seems there is WAY more information and discussion on all the mustang forums I've checked out about modification than original restoration, I know my Mopars so that's easy for me but my Mach 1 has been a challenge to get factual accurate restoration advice. I'd wouldn't want to see someone not restore their car to originality because it seems nobody else is, it could be discouraging for someone new to the hobby and I would hate to see that.

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When I first got my '69 I planned to restore it completely...

 

Now, I'm going to do a little resto-mod. But thats not for lack of desire to make it original. I need so much sheet metal, so many interior items, etc. Hell, my '69 is probably a car most of you here would think of as a parts car. But with rust in the floor pans, a peeled off vinyl top, and dented hood, trunk, and fenders, not to mention the paint, I'd still rather fix it than not. But this car will never be concours, thats for sure.

 

I have a very distinct view on cars. I've got about $6k into my '85 F250 in the past 4 years, and about $5k into my '91 Ford Probe GL. Far more than the value of either, but valuable knowledge was learned along the way, and despite the blue book value, both are in near perfect shape now. They may not re-sell for much, but both of them will last me as long as a new car would, so I consider it a bargain.

 

Now, my 1970 Mustang I've got the original paperwork for, and it's so close to stock that I'm going to fix the few problems it has (rust, mostly, and a peice of chrome) Now, this car will never be concours either, but there will be no long tube headers, 4bbl carbs, or 5 speed swaps. It'll be 100% according to the build sheet, it just might have newer carpet and sheet metal..

 

But overall, I agree with you. At the rate people are taking "cheap" Mustangs like a '69 Coupe and modding them up, it'll just make it all the sooner that my all original '70 transitions from "classic" to "collectable" car...

 

I should add, I've given serious though to building a ballsy 302 to swap into the '70, cleaning the factory motor up, giving it a fresh coat of paint, and storing it. I can always swap it back in on a Saturday, and be back to original on Sunday...

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When I first got my '69 I planned to restore it completely...

 

Now, I'm going to do a little resto-mod. But thats not for lack of desire to make it original. I need so much sheet metal, so many interior items, etc. Hell, my '69 is probably a car most of you here would think of as a parts car. But with rust in the floor pans, a peeled off vinyl top, and dented hood, trunk, and fenders, not to mention the paint, I'd still rather fix it than not. But this car will never be concours, thats for sure.

 

I have a very distinct view on cars. I've got about $6k into my '85 F250 in the past 4 years, and about $5k into my '91 Ford Probe GL. Far more than the value of either, but valuable knowledge was learned along the way, and despite the blue book value, both are in near perfect shape now. They may not re-sell for much, but both of them will last me as long as a new car would, so I consider it a bargain.

 

Now, my 1970 Mustang I've got the original paperwork for, and it's so close to stock that I'm going to fix the few problems it has (rust, mostly, and a peice of chrome) Now, this car will never be concours either, but there will be no long tube headers, 4bbl carbs, or 5 speed swaps. It'll be 100% according to the build sheet, it just might have newer carpet and sheet metal..

 

But overall, I agree with you. At the rate people are taking "cheap" Mustangs like a '69 Coupe and modding them up, it'll just make it all the sooner that my all original '70 transitions from "classic" to "collectable" car...

 

I should add, I've given serious though to building a ballsy 302 to swap into the '70, cleaning the factory motor up, giving it a fresh coat of paint, and storing it. I can always swap it back in on a Saturday, and be back to original on Sunday...

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You use words such as kidderize (what ever that is) and screwed up. I use words such as improve and take to the next level. I guess its all in what you desire.

 

Here's something for the originality snob in ya, I'm taking a true Mach1 and totally Pro-touring it. Not one part of the drivetrain in original now nor does the door tag match the color or interior. Not losing any sleep over it.....

 

I look at it the other way - Purists be damned. Always worrying about whether that bolt is the original one, or if the stupid sticker is in the right place or the silly grease pen mark is sufficiently crooked enough, etc.... What's the fun in owning a car if all you do is fret over it? What fun is it wondering if your 40+ year old steering is going to make it around the next bend or if you can find the one part missing for the original dizzy that acts up every other day anyway?

 

Sure some cars should not be modified due to the historic or rarity value. Cars like a Boss 429 or a '67 427/435 vette and who knows maybe even an S-code. But low end Mach1s, coupes, plain jane verts are not going to ever bring the big dollars. Sure they may hit 15-40K but unless they were the owners 1st car or their son was born in the back seat, they are worth more in sentimental value then actual dollar value.

 

I'm sick of the purists that look at my car and say "that's not the original powerplant". I ask them two questions "where's your ride?" and "want to put $100 on who's fastest or wins more awards". The answers are usually "In the garage for the past 20 years looking for parts" and "speed and awards aren't everything". I agree with them saying speed and awards aren't a big deal when you have neither and a car that probably will never see the light of day and when it does you'll have an ulcer worrying over it......

 

Purists - get over yourselves. I own the car and I'll do what I want with it. When I owned my 1st Mach I was constantly trying to make it better - now I have the actual resources to do it.

Edited by coz

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You use words such as kidderize (what ever that is) and screwed up. I use words such as improve and take to the next level. I guess its all in what you desire.

 

Here's something for the originality snob in ya, I'm taking a true Mach1 and totally Pro-touring it. Not one part of the drivetrain in original now nor does the door tag match the color or interior. Not losing any sleep over it.....

 

I look at it the other way - Purists be damned. Always worrying about whether that bolt is the original one, or if the stupid sticker is in the right place or the silly grease pen mark is sufficiently crooked enough, etc.... What's the fun in owning a car if all you do is fret over it? What fun is it wondering if your 40+ year old steering is going to make it around the next bend or if you can find the one part missing for the original dizzy that acts up every other day anyway?

 

Sure some cars should not be modified due to the historic or rarity value. Cars like a Boss 429 or a '67 427/435 vette and who knows maybe even an S-code. But low end Mach1s, coupes, plain jane verts are not going to ever bring the big dollars. Sure they may hit 15-40K but unless they were the owners 1st car or their son was born in the back seat, they are worth more in sentimental value then actual dollar value.

 

I'm sick of the purists that look at my car and say "that's not the original powerplant". I ask them two questions "where's your ride?" and "want to put $100 on who's fastest or wins more awards". The answers are usually "In the garage for the past 20 years looking for parts" and "speed and awards aren't everything". I agree with them saying speed and awards aren't a big deal when you have neither and a car that probably will never see the light of day and when it does you'll have an ulcer worrying over it......

 

Purists - get over yourselves. I own the car and I'll do what I want with it. When I owned my 1st Mach I was constantly trying to make it better - now I have the actual resources to do it.

Edited by coz

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"Concourse" is a rare place for people who want to memorialize 1969. There's a place for that.

 

IMO, I don't care if a car has an EFI powerplant (Yours, that is.) What I dislike more is the recaro seats that look horrid in an old vehicle. I hate to say, but Old Ford Corp blue valve-covers and air-cleaner lids look way better than Edelbrock anything. Just my opinion...do I mind if a guy throws on a "Cobra" dress-up kit? No. That's just posing, I dislike Edelbrock dressing, that's all.

 

I don't judge you by your car-I judge your car by your car. If you wind up doing something that I think destroys the effect, I might ask you why you didn't just go bone up a Camaro....Again, it's not the principle, it's the effect. Cut the hood up and throw on a 10-in. supercharger, that's not aesthetic, but it's not meant to be.

 

Do what YOU like, just know if you're doing it for looks or effect. Be prepared for someone to say, "If I'd known you were going to do that, I'd have bought it from you for $XK dollars."

Edited by Truck
spelliong

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"Concourse" is a rare place for people who want to memorialize 1969. There's a place for that.

 

IMO, I don't care if a car has an EFI powerplant (Yours, that is.) What I dislike more is the recaro seats that look horrid in an old vehicle. I hate to say, but Old Ford Corp blue valve-covers and air-cleaner lids look way better than Edelbrock anything. Just my opinion...do I mind if a guy throws on a "Cobra" dress-up kit? No. That's just posing, I dislike Edelbrock dressing, that's all.

 

I don't judge you by your car-I judge your car by your car. If you wind up doing something that I think destroys the effect, I might ask you why you didn't just go bone up a Camaro....Again, it's not the principle, it's the effect. Cut the hood up and throw on a 10-in. supercharger, that's not aesthetic, but it's not meant to be.

 

Do what YOU like, just know if you're doing it for looks or effect. Be prepared for someone to say, "If I'd known you were going to do that, I'd have bought it from you for $XK dollars."

Edited by Truck
spelliong

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It is an individual thing I get that, and some cars are too far gone or not desirable enough to matter. some guys want to go original at first but find Summit makes fixing a car easier and cheaper than ebay and swap meets so they lose interest. anyone can stick a K&N air filter on they bought on line, to be original you have to first find out what's correct and then find it, and when you do that filter might cost more than a blower for the mod guy.

 

The point I'm trying to make to those who care is if you want an original car do it, and do it now don't wait for someday in the future because you might not be able to find or aford the parts. at the very least don't chop your car up and have all the parts in storage if you do modify things, you'll more than get your money back down the road if you don't decide to put it back original from guys like me who do. there will be lots of us as these cars get older and more valuble, time will only make the spread between aftermarket cars and original looking cars wider.

 

I won't argue that performance mods make the classics faster and handle better, but a new Shelby will smoke your old car in every way including comfort and reliability. if originality means nothing this is the route I'll take if I want performance. just my 2 cents .

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It is an individual thing I get that, and some cars are too far gone or not desirable enough to matter. some guys want to go original at first but find Summit makes fixing a car easier and cheaper than ebay and swap meets so they lose interest. anyone can stick a K&N air filter on they bought on line, to be original you have to first find out what's correct and then find it, and when you do that filter might cost more than a blower for the mod guy.

 

The point I'm trying to make to those who care is if you want an original car do it, and do it now don't wait for someday in the future because you might not be able to find or aford the parts. at the very least don't chop your car up and have all the parts in storage if you do modify things, you'll more than get your money back down the road if you don't decide to put it back original from guys like me who do. there will be lots of us as these cars get older and more valuble, time will only make the spread between aftermarket cars and original looking cars wider.

 

I won't argue that performance mods make the classics faster and handle better, but a new Shelby will smoke your old car in every way including comfort and reliability. if originality means nothing this is the route I'll take if I want performance. just my 2 cents .

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IMO, rare cars should be kept original. They're a piece of history, so why change it. But for all the other base models, why not change it up and make it different. There are plenty of people keeping their cars original, so its not like you are ever going to have the "last one". On top of that, mustangs are a dime a dozen. I see more classic mustangs than any other classic out there. I work at an autoparts store and i park my car right up front every day. I get complaments almost daily, sometimes more than once. Yet, every now and then, i get a customer who says "why did u screw it up? its worth more when its original." My answer: Because its MY car and as for the value of it, I dont ever plan on selling it.

My car could be worth 10 bucks or 10k and it wouldnt make a difference to me. I dont ever plan on selling it so why should it? Why would I want my car to look like everything else on the road? I agree with COZ, you purist are missing out. that is ofcourse, unless u have a shelby, boss, etc.

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IMO, rare cars should be kept original. They're a piece of history, so why change it. But for all the other base models, why not change it up and make it different. There are plenty of people keeping their cars original, so its not like you are ever going to have the "last one". On top of that, mustangs are a dime a dozen. I see more classic mustangs than any other classic out there. I work at an autoparts store and i park my car right up front every day. I get complaments almost daily, sometimes more than once. Yet, every now and then, i get a customer who says "why did u screw it up? its worth more when its original." My answer: Because its MY car and as for the value of it, I dont ever plan on selling it.

My car could be worth 10 bucks or 10k and it wouldnt make a difference to me. I dont ever plan on selling it so why should it? Why would I want my car to look like everything else on the road? I agree with COZ, you purist are missing out. that is ofcourse, unless u have a shelby, boss, etc.

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really? I crushed a Shelby 500 just the other day. Took him by more than 4 lengths. Think before you post.... Not everyone runs a 250 hp 351w. Find me a new Shelby 500 that breaks the 11 second mark and I'll show you a car that has tons of work done on it to make it hook up. Even the Super Snake can't get below low 11's - proven by Car and Driver. Now the new ZR1 is getting into the high 10's but at 150k, I'd rather put that into my "worth nothing, can't get out of it's way resto-mod" than some mid life crisis mobile or some classic I'm afraid to take out for a drive.

 

Unlike you, most of us are in this hobby for fun and enjoyment - not to make a buck some time in the future. Also, I would be very worried if I had an original car that was not overtly sought after. IMO - the collector car business is dying and will continue to die. We are getting older, kids aren't into the 'older" cars, legislation is always around the corner that could effect prices, even higher gas prices are coming, etc... All are going to hurt collectors or those looking to make a buck on their original car. Hell, there's even legislature out now that calls for the crushing of cars 30 years or older - to stimulate new cars sales of course.

 

I'm not knocking the purists - just stop looking down your nose at those of us that don't share your ideals. As others have pointed, do what you want with your car - period.....

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really? I crushed a Shelby 500 just the other day. Took him by more than 4 lengths. Think before you post.... Not everyone runs a 250 hp 351w. Find me a new Shelby 500 that breaks the 11 second mark and I'll show you a car that has tons of work done on it to make it hook up. Even the Super Snake can't get below low 11's - proven by Car and Driver. Now the new ZR1 is getting into the high 10's but at 150k, I'd rather put that into my "worth nothing, can't get out of it's way resto-mod" than some mid life crisis mobile or some classic I'm afraid to take out for a drive.

 

Unlike you, most of us are in this hobby for fun and enjoyment - not to make a buck some time in the future. Also, I would be very worried if I had an original car that was not overtly sought after. IMO - the collector car business is dying and will continue to die. We are getting older, kids aren't into the 'older" cars, legislation is always around the corner that could effect prices, even higher gas prices are coming, etc... All are going to hurt collectors or those looking to make a buck on their original car. Hell, there's even legislature out now that calls for the crushing of cars 30 years or older - to stimulate new cars sales of course.

 

I'm not knocking the purists - just stop looking down your nose at those of us that don't share your ideals. As others have pointed, do what you want with your car - period.....

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Got a cat fight on our hands?? :tongue_smilie: Heheh...

 

Well, here are my two cents; I have a '69 Mach 1 clone, full tilt Pro-Touring, minus my FMX tranny. It was delivered from factory as a plain jane 351-2v red SportsRoof with those ugly 5-star wheel covers. If I restored it to stock, it would be worth less money than today. At car meets, people wouldn't look twice at it because it isn't a Mach 1, or a Boss. Only the hi-option cars are given respect. Hell, I sometimes get crap from people because it isn't a real Mach 1. And they never know until I tell them, because I have never tried to pass it as a real Mach 1. It was that way when I got it, and I like it, so I never changed it.

 

However, I like looking at superrestored cars. I can appreciate the time and effort it goes into restoring and maintaining a car like that. And the first thing I read in Mustang Monthly is Resto Roundup by Bob Perkins. I love reading those letters. I have modified most of my car, but I try to keep it stock looking, save the wheels and brakes.

It's the concourse cars that tells us how these cars were like new, and are becoming refrence points for all the hobby. And there are enough cars out there to have both trends. And that's also what these cars were about, induviduality. But, I have to admit, I don't like to see a hacked up car. Like Pro-Street cars with no back seat, and all minitubs. Or roofchopped cars.

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Got a cat fight on our hands?? :tongue_smilie: Heheh...

 

Well, here are my two cents; I have a '69 Mach 1 clone, full tilt Pro-Touring, minus my FMX tranny. It was delivered from factory as a plain jane 351-2v red SportsRoof with those ugly 5-star wheel covers. If I restored it to stock, it would be worth less money than today. At car meets, people wouldn't look twice at it because it isn't a Mach 1, or a Boss. Only the hi-option cars are given respect. Hell, I sometimes get crap from people because it isn't a real Mach 1. And they never know until I tell them, because I have never tried to pass it as a real Mach 1. It was that way when I got it, and I like it, so I never changed it.

 

However, I like looking at superrestored cars. I can appreciate the time and effort it goes into restoring and maintaining a car like that. And the first thing I read in Mustang Monthly is Resto Roundup by Bob Perkins. I love reading those letters. I have modified most of my car, but I try to keep it stock looking, save the wheels and brakes.

It's the concourse cars that tells us how these cars were like new, and are becoming refrence points for all the hobby. And there are enough cars out there to have both trends. And that's also what these cars were about, induviduality. But, I have to admit, I don't like to see a hacked up car. Like Pro-Street cars with no back seat, and all minitubs. Or roofchopped cars.

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This is the problem with forums, you can't have a discussion without someone being offended.

 

I didn't say there wasn't a mustang that couldn't outrun a Shelby in the 1/4 mile , though there aren't many. but the new shelby is a far superior car in just about every respect over a modified old car like it or not, it out handles , out stops and always out performs on the hiway. this really isn't the point I was trying to make anyway.

 

I'm not in it for the money, I'd just like to know I can get my money back if I wanted to, try that with a JC Whitney car. besides, I like the classic look of a proper restoration better than sunroofs, Firebird seats and 22" cholo rims but that's just me. I also doubt the collector car world is dying, many of the best cars are going overseas and not many in Hong Kong ever drove a musle car in their life, but they want to. here at home too I see lots of 20 somethings wanting older cars too, just like antiques someone will always want them, if they don't so what.

 

I think preservation of the nicer cars and finding the parts today to put them back to original if you want in the future is a good subject, I'm thinking few here agree so whatever, the more cars that get chopped up the more my little collection will be worth so knock yourself out.

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This is the problem with forums, you can't have a discussion without someone being offended.

 

I didn't say there wasn't a mustang that couldn't outrun a Shelby in the 1/4 mile , though there aren't many. but the new shelby is a far superior car in just about every respect over a modified old car like it or not, it out handles , out stops and always out performs on the hiway. this really isn't the point I was trying to make anyway.

 

I'm not in it for the money, I'd just like to know I can get my money back if I wanted to, try that with a JC Whitney car. besides, I like the classic look of a proper restoration better than sunroofs, Firebird seats and 22" cholo rims but that's just me. I also doubt the collector car world is dying, many of the best cars are going overseas and not many in Hong Kong ever drove a musle car in their life, but they want to. here at home too I see lots of 20 somethings wanting older cars too, just like antiques someone will always want them, if they don't so what.

 

I think preservation of the nicer cars and finding the parts today to put them back to original if you want in the future is a good subject, I'm thinking few here agree so whatever, the more cars that get chopped up the more my little collection will be worth so knock yourself out.

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S Code---- thanks for starting this thread! Really! It is a great discussion and I appreciate both points of view....

 

My .02 - I'd really like a Boss car, and if I had the $$, I would do the best original resto on it that I could. What I bought though, was a Sportsroof that was originally the "toothpaste green" (Aztec Aqua) and had been painted twice - once 80's bronze and then "sell me red". Two passenger seats and a non-original 351. The original was a 302 auto and the engine and trans was gone at least 10 years, according to the guy I bought it from. Standard interior, etc. I just dont see any sense in restoring that, either from an enjoyment factor or finanically.

 

So, what it will have is the stroked 351, body color engine bay, R&P, discs all round, etc. I may not break even on it if I ever do sell it, but I'll enjoy the heck out of building something I like.

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S Code---- thanks for starting this thread! Really! It is a great discussion and I appreciate both points of view....

 

My .02 - I'd really like a Boss car, and if I had the $$, I would do the best original resto on it that I could. What I bought though, was a Sportsroof that was originally the "toothpaste green" (Aztec Aqua) and had been painted twice - once 80's bronze and then "sell me red". Two passenger seats and a non-original 351. The original was a 302 auto and the engine and trans was gone at least 10 years, according to the guy I bought it from. Standard interior, etc. I just dont see any sense in restoring that, either from an enjoyment factor or finanically.

 

So, what it will have is the stroked 351, body color engine bay, R&P, discs all round, etc. I may not break even on it if I ever do sell it, but I'll enjoy the heck out of building something I like.

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this threat is kind of funny.

it reminds me on the never ending discussions in the german and swiss mustang boards.

 

most guys there are purists that would only do stuff that could have been done back in 1969, except maybe putting in a 400hp 347 stroker with edelbrock everything and to be honest, i can't stand those guys.

 

personally i think everything goes as long as it can be built back without great effort: my rack and pinion (randalls) was installed without any drilling, cutting or welding and nothing can be changed faster on a car then rims.

so selling or throwing away original parts that have been replaced with restomod parts is not an option for me.

 

depending on the condition of the vehicle, i think other modifications are totally ok as well. better a pro-tourer or restomod then a pile of rust.

 

my2cents.gif

Edited by grendi

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