SBF vs. BBF, is it feasible?

[SteveZero 10]

Theoretically speaking:

 

What would the process of taking out a 302 w/ C4 and replacing it with a 460 w/ C6 entail? I know that's a pretty big question, but what are the major points in a project like that?

 

Will it fit? What else needs to be modified or replaced? Is it even possible?

 

I like the idea of a big block, but is this a huge undertaking? Would a different sized big block be a better fit?

 

--Steven

[R4K 10]

All I can tell you is that it can be done. I saw a 460 in a 67 fastback last summer, and those guys have even less real estate in the engine compartment than we do. Of course, it entailed cutting the shock towers. Not sure if that would be required in a 69, but I know an FE doesn't require it.

 

You could get yourself a nice FE stroker and get just about the same displacement. Barry Rabotnik of Survival Motorsports (an FE God) sells the complete, balanced, forged stroker kits for what seems to me a pretty reasonable price.

[Mufflerbearing 0]

You can put a 460 in your car. There are several companies that make kits to install a 460. Kauffman Products used to sell them. Do a Google search. You will have to put sub frame connectors on the car due to the huge torque will will get from the big block.

[SteveZero 10]

After a bit of research, it looks like a 390 would be a better option, better upgrade availability.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_FE_engine if this wikipedia page is correct, i'll be able to find an old block in a wrecking yard from a 68-71 or 72-75 truck, approx $150

 

use a rebuild kit: http://www.flatlanderracing.com/rebuildkitsford.html approx $239

 

Get a c6 (local craigslist) $75

 

and have a grand ol' time for about $500 (of course i'd probably double that amount for variables).

 

$1000 for a 390? does that sound about right?

 

http://critesrestoration.com/mustang.htm $189 for the install kit

 

http://www.parts123.com/parts123/yb.dll?parta~partsort $109.95 for bolt on sub frame connectors

 

 

What have I left out? Radiator, exhaust?....what else would need to be fully replaced, and or modified?

 

--Steven

 

p.s. this may need to be moved to the "project" thread

[6T9Mach1 12]

Just take that $1000 estimate and multiply it by four and you might be close...if you do all the work yourself ;) You'll have $1000 in machine work if you get the rotating assembly balanced (which you should). These things always cost more than you think. I went over double on my original "budget" doing my 351w...you always miss little stuff that ends up adding up pretty quick.

[69 Mustang GT 10]

what I would suggest is simply go with a 427 Windsor street fighter. Stroked 351W from coast performance.

 

http://www.coasthigh.com/Assemblies/Crate_Motors/427_injected_venom.htm

 

You will not have to deal with different Springs for the added weight. You can stay With the C4, But I would go to an AOD. You can add Aftermarket Fuel Injection easily.

 

I wish thats what I went with. I built a 40 over full roller 351W with Victor Jr. heads and $9600 later and 8 months of work I have about 500HP. I could of done better off the shelf at COAST.

 

 

Vince.....

[Pakrat 1,043]

Yeah, if I absolutely had to have a BB I would not start with a 390, honestly it has always been the dog of the BB world. These days a 351 stroked to BB CU IN is the way to go really, more power with less weight is always good and nowadays you can get valve covers and other options to even make it look like a real BB too.

 

I would also consider a built C4 before going C6 just for weight savings alone. A fully built C4 can take up to 1000HP easily.

[6T9Mach1 12]

I would also consider a built C4 before going C6 just for weight savings alone. A fully built C4 can take up to 1000HP easily.

 

Plus they have quite a bit less parasitic loss then a C6.

[R4K 10]

Yeah, if I absolutely had to have a BB I would not start with a 390, honestly it has always been the dog of the BB world.

 

You'll get a lot of this. :cursing: 390s are not dogs, they're freakin' great engines and they make great torque for dirt cheap in stock form. Unfortunately, most folks don't need to pull stumps with their muscle cars. The big problem with 390s was their ability to breathe, and the only thing you need to do about that is the same thing you'd most likely do for any other engine you built up from a rebuildable block: 4-barrel aluminum intake (Ebrock streetmaster easily gotten for $175 max) and a carb to go with it and a pair of headers (these however, are not necessarily cheap...Hookers are ~$450 at Summit, you might could find cheaper).

 

You can do a bit more, of course, with a great selection of cams available for cheap (that don't require a valvetrain upgrade) and of course an ignition upgrade, Pertronix conversion is pretty cheap.

 

You don't need expensive heads, with FEs there are good stock heads and great stock heads...there really aren't any heads out there that you "should just get rid of", so it shouldn't matter what casting you have on the block you pick up.

 

FE's can stand for "friggin expensive", but they don't have to. I have 2 separate local craigslist listings for "running when pulled" 390/C6 combos for $400 around here that I'm looking at myself. The one thing to watch out for when buying one, though, is to get one pulled from the proper application...truck 390s had low-compression (~7.5:1) pistons. That's what my Mustang had in it when I got it, and even then it wasn't a slouch (though it was downright nasty when I got done with it).

 

If you want to hear real opinions from real experience on FE's go over to http://fordfe.com and register then create a post titled "Thinking of getting a 390, my buddy says they're dogs...". :shifty:

 

There are some reasons not to put a 390 in a Mustang (a b*tch to change spark plugs is one, a lot of upgrade parts are a bit more expensive than their 351/302 counterparts is another), but "they're a dog" isn't one of them. They're 320HP engines that are good from the factory, and can be made into great engines for pretty cheap.

[Pakrat 1,043]

You'll get a lot of this. :cursing: 390s are not dogs

 

That's cool, they'll all get alot of this :double fuck: right back.:whistling:

 

I suppose I could have said "non performing boat anchor" instead, I certainly meant no offense to anyone with a 390 and if that is what you have already and wanted to build it then hey, go for it. I'm sure there are plenty of folks out there in love with their I6 too but I still wouldn't recommend it. All I'm saying is I PERSONALLY would not start there if I was looking to do a scratch build. I see no reason to choose that over a 427 or 428 or over building up a 302/351W but hey, that's why we have choices out there and varied opinions and I am certainly not the only one who thinks this way about them but I am sure there are folks out there who will always be a fan of it even though it disappeared from the line up for some strange unknown reason. Probably the same type of folk who would spend way too much money on a coupe and then trade it down for a lesser Ford. :tongue_smilie: DOH (j/k bud)

[SlimeGold 69 15]

 

$1000 for a 390? does that sound about right?

 

 

Sorry, but nope again. If your on a tight budget to start with I personaly don't recomend any FE for the simple fact of overall cost (parts, machine work, ect ect). But if money is not a problem, go for it. If your dead set on a big block, go with a 460. You MIGHT get lucky at a junk yard and find a low milage engine fairly cheap, but then you would have to figure in headers, transmission, rear, plus a whole lot more like gas milage. Just build a nice small block IMO.

[69 Mustang GT 10]

Weight then cost. That made up my mind. When my 69 is done I will be building a Cobra kit car. I have already decided on the 427W for those 2 resons. Resale value for a big block Cobra verses a Small block are pretty close compaired to the cost to build.

 

Vince.......

[6T9Mach1 12]

SteveZero, depending on when you are going to do this project I may have an engine for you. My dad has been talking about putting a crate motor in his 68 390 GT. The motor in the car now is a remanufactured Jasper motor that only has about 2000 miles on it. If he does put a different motor in the car this winter I will let you know if you are interested.

[bnickel 10,004]

there's nothing wrong with a 390 but you can't expect to install one in place of a 302 for $1000 or even $2000, same with a 460. once you figure in the cost of all the external stuff you'll need like pulleys and brackets, exhaust, transmission, driveshaft, motor mounts, frame stands, headers or exhaust manifolds, etc. you'll easily be into one for $2500 or more for just a basic setup with an already running engine, and then you'll need to add in the cost of a rebuild, intake and carb, cam and valvetrain, etc.

 

you really should consider just getting a 351, even a stock one but you can always stroke and poke it later if you want more cubes, etc. and it's almost a bolt in, some things will need to changed depending on what year motor you start with

[SteveZero 10]

...the external stuff you'll need like pulleys and brackets, exhaust, transmission, driveshaft, motor mounts, frame stands, headers or exhaust manifolds, etc. you'll easily be into one for $2500 or more for just a basic setup...

 

Thanks everyone for the info. While it does sound feasible, it doesn't sound like something an inexperienced person like me could handle, even if I had the budget to do it with. It's all good information though, and has helped me see that the almost functioning 302 that i have now is a better bet then a full engine swap (although i think it'll be in the back of my mind for a while).

 

We all have dreams for out cars, right?

 

--Steven

 

p.s. for more on the "almost functioning 302" please see this thread http://www.1969stang.com/mustang/forum/showthread.php?t=4428&page=8

[Pakrat 1,043]

p.s. for more on the "almost functioning 302" please see this thread http://www.1969stang.com/mustang/for...?t=4428&page=8

 

LOL, yeah, um if you don't have the cash for a timing light right now than the big block transplant will definitely stay in the dream world for some time I'm afraid. :huh:

[SteveZero 10]

Yeah, I guess it's just hard for me to plunk down $120.00 at the local Kragen.... oh well, i'll have to suck it up eventually. i was just hoping it was a different problem and i wouldn't have to pay the piper.

 

--Steven

[bnickel 10,004]

$120 for a timing light? check with Sears or ebay or something, you should be able to find one a whole lot cheaper than that

[Pakrat 1,043]

You really don't need a super deluxe Cadillac Model for the occasional shadetree mechanic use, there are a variety of timing lights available in the $20-$40 range that will serve the same purpose that you need. I've had the same one for over 30 years now, there has been alot of advancements since then but I have yet to NEED any of them as nice as they might be to have.

[SteveZero 10]

Well, I have a timing light, just not an adjustable one. Isn't that where the "expensive" comes in?

 

--Steven

[Pakrat 1,043]

Who said you need an adjustable one?

[SteveZero 10]

69BossMach1 recommended it to check timing issues on page 7 of that thread. If there's a way to do those tests without buying an adjustable timing light, that would be awesome.

 

--Steven

[Pakrat 1,043]

Well, he's obviously not paying for it or aware of your budget issues. Have you tried to beg, borrow, rent one as he also suggested? Again, it is nice to have but not NEEDED. It is the equivalent of an idiot light on your dash telling you when you should be shifting. If you can't put a little chalk on your balancer and read the numbers without an expensive fancy shmancy timing gun then odds are you shouldn't be attempting to do the work yourself.

 

I still think a car shouldn't be timed with a gun anyway, only used to check where you areat for reference and thet your total timing is good. If you are still at 6-8* BTDC that is a stock setting and way too little. 11-13* BTDC would probably be alot better. If you time it by ear by slowly advancing it until you start to ping and then back it off a little to smooth it out that will be the optimal timing your car likes best and odds are you will end up between the numbers I just gave you.

[SteveZero 10]

Well, a few things: the car appears to be timed correctly. it idles fine, it even sits in drive fine. It cruises from 0-40ish fine. But after that the engine takes a turn and starts shaking violently. If I then "gun it," the problem goes away, until i drop back to those rpms again.

 

in trying to diagnose this problem i have rebuilt the carburetor, replaced the distributer, replaced th spark plugs and wire, replaced the coil, adjusted the timing, blocked the fuel lines to test, cleaned out the carb (rust dust from the gas tank) then added 2 fuel filters.

 

Also, i do use my timing light to get in the ball park, then go by ear. Mostly because i've read your response to timing on so many threads :).

 

--Steven

[bnickel 10,004]

are you absolutely sure it's the engine? sounds to me like you have either a bad drivetrain vibration or seriously out of balance tires. do this, get it up on the freeway and in in the rpm range where it starts shaking then put the trans in neutral and see if the vibration is the same, let it coast for a few seconds then rev the engine back to the apporximate rpm where the vibration starts and see if the vibration comes back or changes at all and let us know what happens