Shelby Drop questions.......again

[bigmal 225]

Hi guys, I know its been asked plenty of time but I'm considering the Shelby drop for my 69 and have the following questions;

• I have seen some templates with negative camber. Is this something fo r69s or only earlier models?
• What is the actual drop measured from the fender to the ground?
• How noticeable is the change to driving and in what way?
• Are spacers/shims needed under the ball joints? if so, recommendations?
• I have 1" lowered springs at the moment. Is it okay to keepo these?
• Also considering roller spring perches at the same time. Thoughts?

Thanks, Mal.

[Mach1 Driver 560]

Here are a couple of references, and its best if you read it from the experts:

https://www.speedwaymotors.com/the-toolbox/understanding-shelby-arning-drop-changes/29324.

https://dazecars.com/dazed/drop.html

I've only heard positive things about roller perches. Well OK, some people complain about the cost, but not the ride improvement.

[det0326 179]

Some of your questions could be better answered if we knew what steering system u may have. Stock verses something else.

I used the CPP steering box which is comparable to the Borgenson just a little quicker ratio. 

I actually plugged the grease zerk fittings on the end of nuts and drilled  on the flat of nut putting the zerk fittings pointing  straight out which allowed me to move the upper control arm back about 1/4 " or so which gave me more positive caster. With 1" drop and more positive caster my car had a more modern feel. The car handled beautifully. None of this tho except the 1" drop is necessary if you are keeping stock steering. 

 

[Rich Ackermann 174]

On my 70 MAch 1 I installed Global West Tubular Upper upper and lower control arms and their adjustable strut rods. Also used their Eccentric Loc-Outs. The kit provided a 1" drop steel template for drilling the lower upper control arm pivot holes. I installed Global West Coil Springs (#: s-27), which are stock height performance street with 640 pounds per inch. I welded in some of the BOSS track Mods... the Shock Tower reinforcements plates and the crossmember lower control arm eccentric anchor plates (I chose to use Global West Eccentric Loc-Outs instead).  I also converted my manual steering to a CPP GM style power steering setup and swapped my front spindles and drum brakes to stronger Granada front spindles, and calipers with slotted/drilled rotors. I just finished the restoration, and have had limited opportunity to drive the car, but so far so good. 

Here is the Global West Suspension product description...

https://www.globalwest.net/mustang-1967-1968-1969-1970-tubular-arms-strut-rods-front-suspension-global-west.html

1967-1973 Mustang Plus 3 Upper Control Arms # MNR-733  (Sold as a Pair)Global West has engineered an upgraded upper control arm for 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1971, 1972, and 1973 Mustangs; the arm provides additional positive caster by moving the upper ball joint back towards the rear of the car.

This particular kit is used for street and handling applications. (Global West also manufactures a control arm for drag racing / street.)

The new Plus 3 Mustang arms are shipped assembled with billet cross shafts, Del-a-lum bushings and ball joints. The a-arms are black powder coated and the cross shafts are blue zinc (silver). Global West manufactures this product in its own facility here in San Bernardino CA.

Tech Information: Caster

With upgraded suspension and present tire technology, caster plays an important part for proper handling of the car. Caster does the following: provides straight line stability, has a self centering action on the front suspension, improves initial turn in during cornering and also resists pulling (right hand drift) caused by road crown.

The Alignment Adjustment and Limitation:

Caster on 1967-73 Mustangs is adjusted by moving the lower control arm forward via the strut rod. The strut rod is threaded at one end where the rubber bushings reside. By loosening and tightening the jam nuts you can pull the lower arm forward gaining more caster.

This was not an option on 1967-1973 Mustangs. The real limitation on how much caster you can get is mainly based on the rim and tire combination you are planning on running. The larger sizes limit how far you can move the lower arm forward because the tire runs into the lower portion of the front fender when the wheel is turned.

If this occurs, you will have to reduce caster, which is not the best answer. Now with Global West Plus 3 upper arms you will be able to get the caster you need!

[Brian Conway 264]

Don't know anything about caster/camber templates ?  The RSS steering rack or right hand drive.  So no help here.

  Brian

[Mach1 Driver 560]

4 hours ago, Brian Conway said:

Tried the Scott Drake HD roller spring perch's and didn't like the squirrely/loose handling.  Put the old solid perch's back on.  Much prefer the solid rigid control.  Brian

That's interesting and definitely the first time I've heard that. What other suspension mods do you have?

Anyone else have this experience?

[bigmal 225]

On 9/17/2021 at 1:33 AM, det0326 said:

Some of your questions could be better answered if we knew what steering system u may have. Stock verses something else.

I used the CPP steering box which is comparable to the Borgenson just a little quicker ratio. 

I actually plugged the grease zerk fittings on the end of nuts and drilled  on the flat of nut putting the zerk fittings pointing  straight out which allowed me to move the upper control arm back about 1/4 " or so which gave me more positive caster. With 1" drop and more positive caster my car had a more modern feel. The car handled beautifully. None of this tho except the 1" drop is necessary if you are keeping stock steering. 

 

Hi, I have cvonverted to right hand drive using an Australian made steering rack by RRS. Very easy to install but loss of turning circle and I'm not crazy about the feel. I can't put my finger on why but its not the greatest. I have some clunks in the front end that I can't identify so why I pull everything out was thinking of some upgrades. When I did the conversion I replace all of the front suspension so it's really anoying to be doing things twice but I don't like clunks.

[det0326 179]

12 hours ago, bigmal said:

Hi, I have cvonverted to right hand drive using an Australian made steering rack by RRS. Very easy to install but loss of turning circle and I'm not crazy about the feel. I can't put my finger on why but its not the greatest. I have some clunks in the front end that I can't identify so why I pull everything out was thinking of some upgrades. When I did the conversion I replace all of the front suspension so it's really anoying to be doing things twice but I don't like clunks.

Sorry bigmal I have seen some nice racks but I know nothing about steering racks so I can't help u there. 

Not sure if CPP or Borgenson makes a right hand drive box or not but it keeps all your steering geometry correct. If u ever tried one I believe u would like it. 

[Vicfreg 771]

I also used the Gobal West (+)3 UCAs. This will allow you to run large tires up front with more Caster.  I also needed that because the Borgeson steering box needs extra caster.

I used Open Tracker LCAs and their roller idler arm.  High Quality Stuff.

To answer your question, I have attached the Original Ford Boss 302 suspension mod book. The "Stage II" mods include the 1" drop and the shock tower mods.  It also has the caster and camber settings and the ride height.  Hope that helps.

 

BOSS302ChassisMod.pdf

[Vicfreg 771]

Pics of my setup.  I have Viking coil over spring/shock combo with adjustable rebound and damping. This also allowed me to adjust the ride height of the car.   

 

[bigmal 225]

Thanks everyone. As always really helpful

[Rich Ackermann 174]

On 9/18/2021 at 7:04 PM, Vicfreg said:

Pics of my setup.  I have Viking coil over spring/shock combo with adjustable rebound and damping. This also allowed me to adjust the ride height of the car.   

Vicfreg,

Very nice setup. I thought about going with a coil over, but in the end chose not to. Looking at yours I wonder if I made the right decision.

[Vicfreg 771]

I like it because it is really not a true coil over, as I kept the upper and lower control arms.  I wanted the ability to adjust the height of my front end after the car was built, without cutting springs.  This is a really slick solution.  I can adjust the height of the car literally in 1/4" increments.

[Rich Ackermann 174]

On 9/20/2021 at 7:29 PM, Vicfreg said:

I like it because it is really not a true coil over, as I kept the upper and lower control arms.  I wanted the ability to adjust the height of my front end after the car was built, without cutting springs.  This is a really slick solution.  I can adjust the height of the car literally in 1/4" increments.

I remember looking at that on the Global West website. The upper control arm are has no spring perch, so the strut can just pass thru it.  Nice setup.

[bigmal 225]

On 9/16/2021 at 8:46 PM, Mach1 Driver said:

Here are a couple of references, and its best if you read it from the experts:

https://www.speedwaymotors.com/the-toolbox/understanding-shelby-arning-drop-changes/29324.

https://dazecars.com/dazed/drop.html

I've only heard positive things about roller perches. Well OK, some people complain about the cost, but not the ride improvement.

Hi mate, these are really good articles. Thanks for that.

It appears most people just do thye strait 1" drop. The DazeCars article describes the 'increased Caster' drop as well. Has anyone done this with their 69 and if so, what is the feedback?

With the RRS rack it feels like it does not centre as quickly as it would normally. It still centres but just not great, so thinking of the increased caster with the drop.

[Vicfreg 771]

The Borgeson has the same problem with return to center if there is not enough caster.  I have that setup on my '68 Mustang, and I ran out of space in the front wheel well when I tried to dial in the required caster that Borgeson specifies.  On my 1970, with the (+) 3 UCA, that is not an issue.   

Bigmal, to answer your question, I am not sure how much caster the 1" drop adds, or if it adds any caster at all.   

The Boss 302 chassis mod book I attached earlier in this thread shows a 2 degree positive caster with the Shelby drop (Stage II), as opposed to the zero degree shown in Stage I.  Not sure if that is due to the drop, or a required change in the caster to accommodate the revised suspension geometry .  I am sure there are some suspension experts out there that can answer this question.

[bigmal 225]

I thought I'd stick my head under and have a look before I started the drop and have found that the previous owner has welded a bodgy reinforcing plate right where I would need to drill the holes. I just wanted to consult those who know way better than me, if there is a possibilty that the drop has laready ben done. I can't see any evidence of it but would hate to have a 2" drop.

The plate will have to come off and I wil add the proper reinforcing and do some tidying up while there.

[Mach1 Driver 560]

looks like a home brew version of these:

https://www.npdlink.com/product/reinforcement-plates-shock-tower/199383?backurl=search%2Fproducts%3Fsearch_terms%3Dshock%2Btower%2Breinforcing%2Bplate%26top_parent%3D200001%26year%3D

[RPM 1,190]

Bigmal I don't have any pics for measurement of my 2 inch drop. I ran a two inch Shelby drop for a while, but you need an upper control arm that has the proper ball joint angle to keep the bj from binding as the oe would do. Me being a crappy driver with no feel couldn't tell the difference between the one and two inch drop. 

Back around Y2K when I was looking into the drop, I think the info I got was from a place called Dr Gas out of Utah that made wedges to angle the ball joint for a drop more than one inch. They said that 69s could handle up to a two inch drop, so more of anything is better, right?

I think I've read somewhere that 1-3/8" is the optimal drop. I've since gone back to the popular one inch drop. 

[EastYorkStang 63]

18 minutes ago, RPM said:

Back around Y2K when I was looking into the drop, I think the info I got was from a place called Dr Gas out of Utah that made wedges to angle the ball joint for a drop more than one inch. They said that 69s could handle up to a two inch drop, so more of anything is better, right?

Dealt with a company that made the wedges out of Sandy Utah. Think, Pro-Motorsports. 

Used them with my b joints in doing a 2 inch drop. 

[Rich Ackermann 174]

46 minutes ago, RPM said:

Bigmal I don't have any pics for measurement of my 2 inch drop. I ran a two inch Shelby drop for a while, but you need an upper control arm that has the proper ball joint angle to keep the bj from binding as the oe would do. Me being a crappy driver with no feel couldn't tell the difference between the one and two inch drop. 

Back around Y2K when I was looking into the drop, I think the info I got was from a place called Dr Gas out of Utah that made wedges to angle the ball joint for a drop more than one inch. They said that 69s could handle up to a two inch drop, so more of anything is better, right?

I think I've read somewhere that 1-3/8" is the optimal drop. I've since gone back to the popular one inch drop. 

For what it is worth, here is the 1" drop template I received from Global West. I wrote the measurements all over it, if you want to make your own. The instruction are simple... Bolt it thru you existing upper control arm shack tower holes and drill two 1/4" holes thru the 1/4" holes in the template below the factory holes..

Also attached below are the alignment instructions, if you are using Global West's upper and lower control arms, Strut rods and Eccentric lock-outs... 

1967-1973 Mustang Plus 3 Upper Control Arms # MNR-733  (Sold as a Pair)Global West has engineered an upgraded upper control arm for 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1971, 1972, and 1973 Mustangs; the arm provides additional positive caster by moving the upper ball joint back towards the rear of the car.

This particular kit is used for street and handling applications. (Global West also manufactures a control arm for drag racing / street.)

The new Plus 3 Mustang arms are shipped assembled with billet cross shafts, Del-a-lum bushings and ball joints. The a-arms are black powder coated and the cross shafts are blue zinc (silver). Global West manufactures this product in its own facility here in San Bernardino CA.

Tech Information: Caster

With upgraded suspension and present tire technology, caster plays an important part for proper handling of the car. Caster does the following: provides straight line stability, has a self centering action on the front suspension, improves initial turn in during cornering and also resists pulling (right hand drift) caused by road crown.

The Alignment Adjustment and Limitation:

Caster on 1967-73 Mustangs is adjusted by moving the lower control arm forward via the strut rod. The strut rod is threaded at one end where the rubber bushings reside. By loosening and tightening the jam nuts you can pull the lower arm forward gaining more caster.

This was not an option on 1967-1973 Mustangs. The real limitation on how much caster you can get is mainly based on the rim and tire combination you are planning on running. The larger sizes limit how far you can move the lower arm forward because the tire runs into the lower portion of the front fender when the wheel is turned.

If this occurs, you will have to reduce caster, which is not the best answer. Now with Global West Plus 3 upper arms you will be able to get the caster you need!

Global West Plus 3 upper arms have 3 degrees of positive caster built into them. This will eliminate the need to pull the lower arm so far forward in order to get the desired alignment. 

Coil Springs are stock height #: s-27 performance street with 640 pounds per inch.

Global West has engineered an upgraded upper control arm for 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1971, 1972, and 1973 Mustangs; the arm provides additional positive caster by moving the upper ball joint back towards the rear of the car.

This particular kit is used for street and handling applications. (Global West also manufactures a control arm for drag racing / street.)

The new Plus 3 Mustang arms are shipped assembled with billet cross shafts, Del-a-lum bushings and ball joints. The a-arms are black powder coated and the cross shafts are blue zinc (silver). Global West manufactures this product in its own facility here in San Bernardino CA.

Tech Information: Caster

With upgraded suspension and present tire technology, caster plays an important part for proper handling of the car. Caster does the following: provides straight line stability, has a self centering action on the front suspension, improves initial turn in during cornering and also resists pulling (right hand drift) caused by road crown.

The Alignment Adjustment and Limitation:

Caster on 1967-73 Mustangs is adjusted by moving the lower control arm forward via the strut rod. The strut rod is threaded at one end where the rubber bushings reside. By loosening and tightening the jam nuts you can pull the lower arm forward gaining more caster.

This was not an option on 1967-1973 Mustangs. The real limitation on how much caster you can get is mainly based on the rim and tire combination you are planning on running. The larger sizes limit how far you can move the lower arm forward because the tire runs into the lower portion of the front fender when the wheel is turned.

If this occurs, you will have to reduce caster, which is not the best answer. Now with Global West Plus 3 upper arms you will be able to get the caster you need!

Global West Plus 3 upper arms have 3 degrees of positive caster built into them. This will eliminate the need to pull the lower arm so far forward in order to get the desired alignment.

Note: When using Plus 3 arms, there is now a right and left upper control arm. The original control arms (factory or first generation Global West Negative Roll control arms) are universal.
 

1966-1967-1968-1969-1970-1971-1972-1973-mustang-cougar-fairlane-falcon-ranchero-mustang-eccentric-loc-out-kit-instructions-loc-2.pdf

[bigmal 225]

7 hours ago, RPM said:

Bigmal I don't have any pics for measurement of my 2 inch drop. I ran a two inch Shelby drop for a while, but you need an upper control arm that has the proper ball joint angle to keep the bj from binding as the oe would do. Me being a crappy driver with no feel couldn't tell the difference between the one and two inch drop. 

Back around Y2K when I was looking into the drop, I think the info I got was from a place called Dr Gas out of Utah that made wedges to angle the ball joint for a drop more than one inch. They said that 69s could handle up to a two inch drop, so more of anything is better, right?

I think I've read somewhere that 1-3/8" is the optimal drop. I've since gone back to the popular one inch drop. 

Hi mate, sorry but I may have confused people. I only want to do the 1" drop but with the plate welded in I can't do it. I'm happy to remove the plate and add the conventional shock tower reinforcing plate but just want to make sure it doesn't already have the drop.

I hope the pictures are clear enough to see the issue.

Thanks, Mal

[RPM 1,190]

10 hours ago, EastYorkStang said:

Dealt with a company that made the wedges out of Sandy Utah. Think, Pro-Motorsports. 

Used them with my b joints in doing a 2 inch drop. 

Ya, that's them.

You didn't confuse me at all bigmal, just pointing out that the 2 inch can be done if ya got the correct parts.

[bigmal 225]

Well I completed the Shelby drop and I'm very happy with the outcome. Big improvement in handling and just a poofteenth lower. It was really quite a simple job.

As some background, I rebuilt the front end 5 years ago and replaced everything. After about a year it developed a clunk over bumps which I couldn't locate. This prompted me to do the drop and have a good look for the source of the clunk. It became obvous very quickly. One of the new Scott Drake shocks had failed leaking fluid over the rubbers which destroyed them leaving them metal to metal. As annoyed as I was that new shocks failed I was happy to find my problem.

I bought a new set of Gabriel shocks thinking they were a reasonable brand. As I took one out of the box it wasn't fully extended. As I moved it, it shot the centre out exploding oil everywhere. It filled my eyes, covered everything including the ceiling, cars and colectables. After I realised my eyes didn't hurt, I cleaned myself up and everything else. I complained to the vendor and recieved a full refund and $250 for my trouble. I have since bought Pedders shocks and I'm very happy with them. FYI, I now know Grabiel are cheap Chinese crap and I'll never go near them again.

[RPM 1,190]

Holy crap. Outstanding that they gave you $250 for your troubles.