Jump to content
rittenrotton

Mini Starter Wiring

Recommended Posts

I have given this a little thought also. I don't see why u couldn't leave stock sol. connected as is and jump the little terminal to the big one on the starter and of course put the big wire from stock sol to the big terminal on starter as it should be. What this would do for u is all power would be off starter when ignition switch is in the run position just like stock wiring was.  I did connect mine as u have drawn tho and never changed it but again I think it would work and safer too incase of a hot starter wire getting burned by a hot header.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I sorta agree with Det0326, but for a slightly different reason.  The large wire going to the starter is always hot with your diagram, and unless very well protected against chafing and pinching, just adds another line that can short out catastrophically.  Your design, of course, will work, and removes the starter solenoid as a potential failure point.  I'd rather have a failed starter solenoid than a dead short from battery to chassis somewhere along the way from starter solenoid to starter (think bad motor mounts and rotating engine assembly).  Both failures are unlikely and/or rare, but the risk of a short can cause much more damage.

I spent my last 12 years doing failure analysis, system safety, and risk assessment for Navy helicopter systems, where reliability and safety are always top priorities.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I actually have mine wired this way and it works, as you would expect. (I like that it looks stock, for whatever that's worth) You're essentially running two solenoids in series and it's easy enough to bypass the old solenoid in the circuit if needed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, Midlife said:

I sorta agree with Det0326, but for a slightly different reason. 

I spent my last 12 years doing failure analysis, system safety, and risk assessment for Navy helicopter systems, where reliability and safety are always top priorities.

Actually Mid, I read that as you and Dave saying the same thing. And that's the way I would do it too, for all those reasons.

So you worked with those contraptions where the wing travels faster than the aircraft? Yeah, they need a lot of risk assessment. Actually I've been up in choppers a few times. My first ride was given by a new market that opened up down the street from us. They gave away free rides in a bubble copter (this was the late 50s), right there in their parking lot. My twin brother and I were picked, and up we went. I remember flying low over our house and seeing our dog running in the front yard. It obviously made an impression. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm a little confused.......

Isn't the solenoid on the starter essentially the same as the solenoid on the apron?  I thought I could eliminate the apron solenoid and clean up the engine bay.  I intend to rid of the regulator too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wait a minute...is this one of those permanent magnet gear motors PMGR? If so this is a well documented problem.

A PMGR should be connected as shown in the first post and picture. 

The terminal at 1 o'clock is the battery terminal, 5 o'clock is the motor terminal, and 8 o'clock is the "signal actuator". If both the long red wire and the yellow wires connect to the right terminal of the old starter solenoid- as I believe Dave (det0326) suggested, then when the starter is turned off it will start generating and feed back into its solenoid and stay on for maybe 15 seconds or so. 

Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, jjstang said:

I'm a little confused.......

Isn't the solenoid on the starter essentially the same as the solenoid on the apron?  I thought I could eliminate the apron solenoid and clean up the engine bay.  I intend to rid of the regulator too.

You still need the battery apron starter solenoid to energize it with the ignition CRANK signal and to feed the coil with full battery voltage while cranking (although that may not be needed if you're running an ignition system that doesn't use the resistor wire).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think I wired mine like the original post only I moved the heavy red wire to the other side of the apron solenoid, in parallel with the yellow. I'll check tomorrow, not that it matters :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, Mach1 Driver said:

Wait a minute...is this one of those permanent magnet gear motors PMGR? If so this is a well documented problem.

A PMGR should be connected as shown in the first post and picture. 

 

Yes Terry, I believe u are right if it is a PMGM, that I would assume OP is using. The only way it would work as I described would be to jump the two terminals on the starter with a heavy duty diode. lol  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, Mach1 Driver said:

Wait a minute...is this one of those permanent magnet gear motors PMGR? If so this is a well documented problem.

A PMGR should be connected as shown in the first post and picture. 

The terminal at 1 o'clock is the battery terminal, 5 o'clock is the motor terminal, and 8 o'clock is the "signal actuator". If both the long red wire and the yellow wires connect to the right terminal of the old starter solenoid- as I believe Dave (det0326) suggested, then when the starter is turned off it will start generating and feed back into its solenoid and stay on for maybe 15 seconds or so. 

Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

I believe you are correct.  I've purchased starters of that style and the instructions indicate there will be problems with it disengaging unless it's wired like the diagram in the initial post.  With that said, Powermaster does offer another style PMGR starter that can be wired like Midlife has mentioned.  I have one on my Mach 1 and it will work wired either like the original diagram posted or like Midlife mentioned.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 hours ago, Midlife said:

You still need the battery apron starter solenoid to energize it with the ignition CRANK signal and to feed the coil with full battery voltage while cranking (although that may not be needed if you're running an ignition system that doesn't use the resistor wire).

So since I'm using the AAW harness, and I think it eliminates the resistor wire, I won't need the apron solenoid, right?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Once one goes to aftermarket wiring, all my knowledge pretty much goes out the window.  I believe you're right, but I wouldn't throw out the starter solenoid until you're got a working system..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

13 hours ago, jjstang said:

So since I'm using the AAW harness, and I think it eliminates the resistor wire, I won't need the apron solenoid, right?

Are you talking about the resistor wire highlighted below? And your thinking is that since you don't have the resistor wire, you don't need the lower NO contact in the apron starter solenoid, so you don't need the apron starter solenoid at all? If you have a permanent magnet starter motor, then you still need a relay, it doesn't have to be the big clunky apron starter solenoid. A PM starter motor becomes a DC generator when it is turned off (and still spinning) and you have to separate the starter's "signal actuator" from the starter's solenoid with a second relay. If not, the current generated by the motor will feed back and continue to run for up to 15 seconds after turned off.

The old starter solenoid is also a good place to attach the big battery cables as in the first post. When Ford first went to PM starters they kept the apron starter solenoid and had the second at the starter- just as shown above in the first post.

 

 

 

image.thumb.png.2fb2287768bb795187b0577dddf1bf18.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, jjstang said:

So since I'm using the AAW harness, and I think it eliminates the resistor wire, I won't need the apron solenoid, right?

Give AAW a call. They are very helpful and  friendly. Just emailed them myself about another issue on another brand car I own.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, jjstang said:

So since I'm using the AAW harness, and I think it eliminates the resistor wire, I won't need the apron solenoid, right?

I think u are correct. As Midlife said if u are using a different ignition circuit that eliminates the resistor wire you don't need stock sol. if your starter has one. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, rittenrotton said:

Thank you everyone for your help! I;m going to reach out to aaw and see what they say

My 2 cents.  Wiring like your initial diagram, I think is the best for that type of starter.  (1) It will eliminate any potential for the disengagement issues. (2) The original Ford starter relay and not the ignition switch will carry the current to energize the solenoid attached to the top of the starter.

An old school trick GM people would do before all these high torque PMGR starters was to add a Ford starter relay and wire the starter just like your original diagram.  The Ford relay can more easily carry the current to energize the starter solenoid than the ignition switch and wiring from the switch.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have AAW harness and a mini-starter. I I just ran the wire as normal to the new starter.  I installed a jumper between the IGN and BAT terminal on the starter.  Works fine. My is made by JEGS, but should be the same for other starters.  See attached.

 

 

555-10005.pdf

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...