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Viperpete

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10 minutes ago, Viperpete said:

I'll try practicing on some sheet steel I have to see if I can get those craters like you mentioned on some various thickness steel.... Also I have a question about the datum line and the floor assemblies position...The very end of the rear frame is 11 3/16" high and the very front of the front frame is 6" high (based on the diagram) Are the rockers supposed to be at an upward angle like that? I know you mentioned that the rockers might not necessarily need to be parallel to the datum line. The diagram picture obviously might not be accurate either. 

Last year I made a frame jig to replace frame rails on a 70 vert which was sagged using the measurements from above diagram AND measuring 3 69-70 cars with no accident damage/signs I could find. After setting the X-6 and X-6 1/2, all A, B, C and 11 3/16 dimensions were very very close on those 3 cars. The sketch does not show rockers, so I would follow the dimensions on that diagram and let the rocker fall in place. I don't remember measuring the rockers to see if they are parallel to datum as I am not changing them but as far as I remember visually it was not parallel. If I remember, I will check it when I am in the shop as the vert is still on the jig.

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An other thing; as far as I remember, the original inner and outer rockers have tabs/indentions that must line up. So when you put your side frames with outer rockers on the floor with inner rockers, you get those tabs/indentions mate and you are good to go with out getting a specific measurement correct (if repro parts also have the tabs/indentions).

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8 hours ago, aslanefe said:

An other thing; as far as I remember, the original inner and outer rockers have tabs/indentions that must line up. So when you put your side frames with outer rockers on the floor with inner rockers, you get those tabs/indentions mate and you are good to go with out getting a specific measurement correct (if repro parts also have the tabs/indentions).

Yes they do have the indents/notches. They are also boxed at the ends so they should line up really well. 

As far as measuring cars, NPD is just down the road. Maybe I can go and ask them to put a couple of them on the 4 post lifts to get those measurements, or is that something I can do while they are on the ground? 

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2 hours ago, Viperpete said:

Yes they do have the indents/notches. They are also boxed at the ends so they should line up really well. 

As far as measuring cars, NPD is just down the road. Maybe I can go and ask them to put a couple of them on the 4 post lifts to get those measurements, or is that something I can do while they are on the ground? 

Don't know about measuring cars at NPD but I just measured the car I have on my jig. Front of the rockers are about 2 inches higher.

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3 minutes ago, aslanefe said:

Don't know about measuring cars at NPD but I just measured the car I have on my jig. Front of the rockers are about 2 inches higher.

I don't have a car I can measure. My shell has no floor whatsoever. 

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1 hour ago, Viperpete said:

I don't have a car I can measure. My shell has no floor whatsoever. 

I do not understand what you are trying to measure. Level the "new floor" you got per the sketch datum line/measurements (X-6 and X-6 1/2), then front of your inner rocker will be 2 inches higher than the rear of the rocker from your table. I already took/checked all the measurements for you using 3 cars.

Edited by aslanefe
typo

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3 hours ago, aslanefe said:

I do not understand what you are trying to measure. Level the "new floor" you got per the sketch datum line/measurements (X-6 and X-6 1/2), then front of your inner rocker will be 2 inches higher than the rear of the rocker from your table. I already took/checked all the measurements for you using 3 cars.

ok :)

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1 hour ago, Viperpete said:

ok :)

an other tip for you.

The X-6 1/2 is from the middle of of spring bolt hole. As far as I remember the bolt hole and spring bolts are1/2 inch dia. Remove the tubes from your old spring bushings (or get a tube with 1/2 inch inner diameter and cut it to fit inside the spring mount). Get a square or rectangle tubing. Weld the tubes on this tubing while maintaining 6 1/2 inches from the bottom of rectangle tube to middle of round tube. install them on your spring locations using the spring bolts or a 1/2 inch round bar. Weld the tubes to the table. On the front, cut 6 inch long rectangle tube, weld a 1-2 inch  flat stock on one side so the frame rail will sit at 6 inches long tube and the flat stock will touch inside or out side of the rail. weld them to your table. this way if/when you need to lift the floor up (while positioning/installing other pieces to your floor) you can remove the spring bolts, lift your new floor pan and put it back on the front 6 inch tubes, line up the spring holes and secure with spring bolts and not have to measure and get the datum etc correct again. This way you have fixed indexes. After you are done and before you give the table back to your friend, grind the welds for the rectangle tubes and remove them.

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1 hour ago, aslanefe said:

an other tip for you.

The X-6 1/2 is from the middle of of spring bolt hole. As far as I remember the bolt hole and spring bolts are1/2 inch dia. Remove the tubes from your old spring bushings (or get a tube with 1/2 inch inner diameter and cut it to fit inside the spring mount). Get a square or rectangle tubing. Weld the tubes on this tubing while maintaining 6 1/2 inches from the bottom of rectangle tube to middle of round tube. install them on your spring locations using the spring bolts or a 1/2 inch round bar. Weld the tubes to the table. On the front, cut 6 inch long rectangle tube, weld a 1-2 inch  flat stock on one side so the frame rail will sit at 6 inches long tube and the flat stock will touch inside or out side of the rail. weld them to your table. this way if/when you need to lift the floor up (while positioning/installing other pieces to your floor) you can remove the spring bolts, lift your new floor pan and put it back on the front 6 inch tubes, line up the spring holes and secure with spring bolts and not have to measure and get the datum etc correct again. This way you have fixed indexes. After you are done and before you give the table back to your friend, grind the welds for the rectangle tubes and remove them.

So I figured out why I was getting an incorrect x2 measurement. Wrong hole! ... my wife hates it when that happens LOL.

The new floor is pretty much spot on according to those datum line measurements 

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2 minutes ago, stangs-R-me said:

I was wondering the same thing until I re-read your last post ... guessing it was the wrong hole comment Bob was replying to !!

Doug

lol yeah probably. 

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On 3/29/2022 at 6:13 PM, aslanefe said:

an other tip for you.

The X-6 1/2 is from the middle of of spring bolt hole. As far as I remember the bolt hole and spring bolts are1/2 inch dia. Remove the tubes from your old spring bushings (or get a tube with 1/2 inch inner diameter and cut it to fit inside the spring mount). Get a square or rectangle tubing. Weld the tubes on this tubing while maintaining 6 1/2 inches from the bottom of rectangle tube to middle of round tube. install them on your spring locations using the spring bolts or a 1/2 inch round bar. Weld the tubes to the table. On the front, cut 6 inch long rectangle tube, weld a 1-2 inch  flat stock on one side so the frame rail will sit at 6 inches long tube and the flat stock will touch inside or out side of the rail. weld them to your table. this way if/when you need to lift the floor up (while positioning/installing other pieces to your floor) you can remove the spring bolts, lift your new floor pan and put it back on the front 6 inch tubes, line up the spring holes and secure with spring bolts and not have to measure and get the datum etc correct again. This way you have fixed indexes. After you are done and before you give the table back to your friend, grind the welds for the rectangle tubes and remove them.

So I was making 100% sure the measurements were right before welding the floor to the assembly table. 

thumbnail-IMG-2217.jpg

The spring bolt hole is off by about 1/2". It's supposed to be 6.5" from the center of the hole to the datum line. 

This is a complete one-piece floor pan. I'm not sure what if anything I can do about it. The front X measurement is 6". The rear of the frame is 11 3/16".

 

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28 minutes ago, Viperpete said:

So I was making 100% sure the measurements were right before welding the floor to the assembly table. 

 

The spring bolt hole is off by about 1/2". It's supposed to be 6.5" from the center of the hole to the datum line. 

This is a complete one-piece floor pan. I'm not sure what if anything I can do about it. The front X measurement is 6". The rear of the frame is 11 3/16".

 

May be the 11 3/16 is off because the frame sagged as there are no quarter panels etc. Do you still have the pieces you cut from the old body? If so, find the section that has the frame and front spring attach piece, measure the spring hole to bottom of frame rail on the old piece and new floor. See if they are the same. If they are, I would put the spring hole to 6 1/2, front of frame to 6 and push up on aft of the frame to get it to 11 3/16.

Edited by aslanefe
Typo

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2 hours ago, aslanefe said:

May be the 11 3/16 is off because the frame sagged as there are no quarter panels etc. Do you still have the pieces you cut from the old body? If so, find the section that has the frame and front spring attach piece, measure the spring hole to bottom of frame rail on the old piece and new floor. See if they are the same. If they are, I would put the spring hole to 6 1/2, front of frame to 6 and push up on aft of the frame to get it to 11 3/16.

Interesting idea. Ok. I think i might have the piece of the rear frame. Lets say that I do have them and they are different from the new floor pan assembly... I'll have to weld brackets to the front frame and the spring hole area. Then I guess use some square stock and a car jack to "bend" the rear frame upwards somehow evenly..... not excited to do that honestly. 

I do have the watts link with rear frame sections I bought from Mustangs to Fear. Might be worthwhile to bolt those in and see how they line up with the floor pan as they make those on their jig and they are 100%

This is it:

1764505361.jpg

Those curved pieces go right over the stock rear frame section for the watts link. 

 

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If they measure different, then you need to change the X-6 1/2 dimension to compensate for the difference. The X-6 and X-6 1/2 are datums for a reason and you MUST start with those dimensions and push/pull to get the other dimensions right. A difference of 1/2 inches on X-6 1/2 will cause 1 or more inches difference at the front of front rail and you will have uneven gaps between panels (for example fender to door will be 1/16 at the top, 1/2 on the bottom). Mounting the MTF rear will not tell you anything. Why don't you compare the spring hole location on the original piece to new floor first? Measure the hole to bottom of rail, hole to top of rail on both old and new, it should take you about 2 minutes to do that.

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4 hours ago, aslanefe said:

If they measure different, then you need to change the X-6 1/2 dimension to compensate for the difference. The X-6 and X-6 1/2 are datums for a reason and you MUST start with those dimensions and push/pull to get the other dimensions right. A difference of 1/2 inches on X-6 1/2 will cause 1 or more inches difference at the front of front rail and you will have uneven gaps between panels (for example fender to door will be 1/16 at the top, 1/2 on the bottom). Mounting the MTF rear will not tell you anything. Why don't you compare the spring hole location on the original piece to new floor first? Measure the hole to bottom of rail, hole to top of rail on both old and new, it should take you about 2 minutes to do that.

Ya just thinking outloud. I'll see if I have that piece. Might, might not. 

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8 hours ago, aslanefe said:

If you do not have the pieces, let me know. I have a 70 on the lift and should be easy to measure even though the springs are installed.

Ok, i'll check tomorrow and see what I have left. I threw out almost everything as the floor pan was in such horrible shape. I think i've got the front clip and under the rear seat area/over the axle. I'll check tomorrow. 

This is what the shell looks like now except I built a dolly for it so I can move it around. You can see the rear seat area I mentioned on the floor on the left. 

IMG-0508.jpg

IMG-0510.jpg

 

 

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On 3/31/2022 at 1:11 PM, aslanefe said:

If you do not have the pieces, let me know. I have a 70 on the lift and should be easy to measure even though the springs are installed.

So I found the issue. The front X6" and rear 11 3/16" measurements are correct. The drivers side X-6 1/2" is correct but the passengers side is off by about 3/4". I think this is from the floor assembly being on its side against my shop wall for 6 months.  If I push down on the passenger side it does get closer to the 6 1/2". I'm using some anvils to get it pressed down so I can weld it to the assembly table at the correct height. The front frame and rear gas tank area are at the correct heights and are welded in place to the table. The side to side measurements are also very close to spec. 1/16" off here and there. I think that's within tolerance. Will post pics later of what I did. 

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This is how far off the passenger frame rail was off. 

IMG-2222.jpg

5 other points on the floor assembly were at the correct height and were welded to the table. 

IMG-2223.jpg

IMG-2224.jpg

IMG-2225.jpg

IMG-2226.jpg

IMG-2227.jpg

I'm relived that the floor assembly was only tweaked a little bit. I think it was from sitting on its side against the wall of my shop for 6 months. Don't know for sure. Ready to clamp those side assemblies now! 

 

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11 hours ago, Viperpete said:

So I found the issue. The front X6" and rear 11 3/16" measurements are correct. The drivers side X-6 1/2" is correct but the passengers side is off by about 3/4". I think this is from the floor assembly being on its side against my shop wall for 6 months.  If I push down on the passenger side it does get closer to the 6 1/2". I'm using some anvils to get it pressed down so I can weld it to the assembly table at the correct height. The front frame and rear gas tank area are at the correct heights and are welded in place to the table. The side to side measurements are also very close to spec. 1/16" off here and there. I think that's within tolerance. Will post pics later of what I did. 

After you weld the side frames, quarters etc, they will keep the passenger side X- 6 1/2 in place.

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