foothilltom
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Posts posted by foothilltom
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I hear you loud and clear. WRT the carb rebuild, that may have been money down the drain in terms of actual improvement (none), but I must say I learned a lot. There's value for me to not look at my carb like some kind of nuclear reactor like I did before. Hell, I now know what the parts are and where they go.
If I'm even remotely successful getting this biatch to run with my points, I will definitely get the electronic ignition kit from a good mail order place and swap them in eventually. I'll keep my old points/condenser as 'backup' only. If I can't get this thing to run, I'll probably postpone that purchase until I get things under control.
But I hear you about the parts folks. The Napa store in my neck o' the woods is staffed by kids for the most part. There's one old Ford guy, but he only works days and I tend to make my junkets after work. Maybe I need to change my schedule. :)
Wish me luck in getting this thing to stop exploding at me.
Tom
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More lessons learned. In my penny-wise, pound-foolish approach, I bought just the points. I actually had the guy look up the Electronic Ignition kit at the parts store and was put off by the $100 price tag. I wound up paying $20 for points and continuing my dinosaur ways. But like you say, if it's the point gap, then my original points were probably fine anyway...I just replaced them mostly because I knew how.
I'll try messing with the gap. The backfiring definitely started in during that part of my "shotgun" approach and I perhaps I haven't tried closing them enough. I think opening them started me down this backfire-path.
And I didn't know you had to plug the vacuum on the distributor (dizzy, eh?) when messing with the timing. I'll make sure to do that next time.
I'll post an update later. My "job" has a way of taking me out of the garage and I hate it for that :)
Tom
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Hey guys,
I think I'm close to the end of my skills here and would appreciate any pointers/advice. Long story, short:
351W slept for 20 years. Carefully coaxed it to life. Ran GREAT from external fuel tank until I put in my "sealed" tank. Motor pinged something fierce on its maiden driving voyage (maybe 5 mile drive total). Got it home, reset the point gap to .017", and it ran even worse. Noticed the red gas finally.
Blew out fuel lines, running from remote tank again, changed points, and made an attempt at setting the timing. That failed because I couldn't get her to run long enough to sprint between front seat and engine compartment. I've turned it to and fro with no real good outcome -- POPPING is horrendous.
Undertook a carb rebuild. Bought the NAPA kit for 4160, cleaned out the bowls, replaced the needles, power valve (it's a single pumper), pump, and all gaskets. I couldn't bring myself to unscrew that big screw down the throat of the primary that has the 2 tiny tubes coming out of it (what the hell is that called?) for fear of never being able to get them back in.
In short, I guess it was a 50% rebuild, but it's all I felt comfy doing in one day. Replaced it, snugged everything, re-connected all vacuum lines, and tried to fire her up...
...she ran "better" but is now POPPING rhythmically: like one loud POP every cycle of the engine. Doesn't get better at any RPM. I was able to keep her running (despite the awful noise and the fear of blowing my new power valve) and mess with the timing. I didn't have a light hooked up, but I was just moving it slowly to see if I could get that popping to go away.
Needless to say it did not. I'm pretty much out of ideas. Since she ran so good before the fuel disaster, I'm not really sure where to go from here. I forgot to buy the SeaFoam at the store today when I bought the points. Me dumb. I'm wondering if that is my next step.
I've scanned the hell out of the Holley site and it doesn't include a FAQ for the "dumb-ass that runs pink gas", and all I can see is "lean this", fuel filter that. I've tried all the obvious stuff -- or so I think.
I'd really appreciate any similar experiences and suggestions. At this point, I'm considering calling in paid help -- what a failure that would be.
Tom
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Oh, and interesting comment about the point gap. I *did* reset the gap before the popping starting (during the pinging episode, before I realized my gas was pink)!
I set the gap to the .017" according to my manual. To be honest, the points were set much closer to that originally -- and I assumed it could be resulting in my pinging (keep in mind I hadn't seen the pink gas yet).
I wonder if the stock gap is too wide for whatever is happening here. I guess measuring the dwell/timing/gap holistically is a good idea eventually.
In any case, bear in mind that I did mess with the point gap before all the popping, but well after the pinging and all the bad gas went through the carb.
Tom
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Hey Pak, solid advice. I will get the SeaFoam later today. FWIW, I pulled the carb last night just to prove that I could and I am going to give it a good cleaning for fun and re-install. Mess with nothing, just clean.
I'll then try the SeaFoam to clean out downstream from the carb. I figure the car will start right now and I should be able to goose the throttle enough to run it through the system.
Regarding timing, of all things, my distributor wouldn't turn. It was good and stuck. I've been putting drops of Mystery Oil down the shaft every day for 3 days in hopes that will loosen her up. I may resort to a pair of vice grips and a little tapping if necessary. In short, I have no idea where she's timed currently, but it was good enough to run the other day, so I'm going to leave that variable alone for now.
In any case, I'm still of the mind that my carb is *really* dirty/clogged and the explanation for the pops now that then "pinging" has stopped with good gas. If my naive cleaning doesn't do it, I'm going to try the SeaFoam. If that doesn't do it, I'll check the timing. If that doesn't do it, I think I'll try the carb rebuild.
I'm definitely trying to avoid real pain until I have to. I appreciate the info.
Tom
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So you're saying you replaced all these things BEFORE the battery-sparking incident? If so, my point would be the same: check for spark.
The rotor just sits on top, yes. There's only one way for it to fit. I'd at least take a look at the points to see if they are burnt. I don't have any first-hand experience with cross-wiring the battery, so I don't know what that could do to downstream components.
As always, start from the start. Is there spark? Yes? Then, I'd look back at fuel/air.
Good luck.
Tom
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I like the "no spark" theory. For a car that was recently running, I'd tend to think that pumps, carbs, chokes, and other stuff wouldn't go bonkers...especially with normal gas :)
Considering you did a reverse polarity number on your electrical system with the battery situation, I'd really suspect spark. Here's a test I remember doing in auto shop in 1978:
Pull the #1 plug wire, roll back the rubber boot to expose the metal contact, hold the wire with some insulated pliers and ground it to the block while a pal cranks the car. It helps to do this in the dark: if you see a spark jump across to the block: huzzah, you have spark. If you see nothing, all the cranking in the world is not going to start your baby.
Assuming you have no spark, here are some things along the way: Voltage Regulator, Coil, Coil wire, Distributor cap, rotor, points. All of these can be the cause of a no-spark and they may all have to be addressed in some order of cheap to expensive.
I'd test for spark and go to it. Did you pull your cap and leave your rotor off? I've done it more than once. Is your cap cracked? Did you fry your coil when you did the Frankenstein thing? Is your Voltage Regulator hooked up properly? Is your coil wire making good contact between the coil and the distributor? Perhaps your points are fried together?
If you shot gas all over your fender, I'd not suspect fuel. As Raven said, it should at least make an honest effort to start/run. Hell, my coupe started on red goo for fuel.
Finally, you got to enjoy a good mystery to enjoy this hobby -- as frustrating as they can be. Otherwise, it'll drive you bananas. Take the long haul approach and take pride in solving your mystery eventually.
Good luck, hombre.
Tom
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Yes. First page I came to on Summit Racing:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/EDL-2121/
A couple hundred more bucks and you've got a 4bbl 302 with strange starting problems! J/K.
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Could it be a tail panel from a 67-68? They were concave toward the front of the car.
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I'm game to try the SeaFoam stuff. Is it safe to say I hose down the carb with the carb installed and the engine NOT running? Or do I do all of this with it running?
I'm hoping the former as it's all I can do to keep this thing running at all. I could see it being hard to keep it running while spraying all that stuff down the throat.
With that said, would it be superior to just remove the carb and spray it down good, then re-install, spray the cylinders, and fire her up?
Thanks for the idea, Pak.
Tom
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Hey Dan, I'm at work and must be brief, but don't take offense, I didn't mean any. What I was trying to say is that I don't want to insult your intelligence. You obviously are a smart and super-capable guy (hence the helicopter pilot comment) and I don't want to lecture you on the need for more info.
It looks like you provided some good info above, so I'm sure it's going to unleash some useful stuff from the boys.
Tom
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With regard to the Luv tank...I told them about my experience obviously, but it doesn't have the engine in yet, so no hurry. I suggested they put fuel in the tank now, let it marinade for a week or so, and see what comes out. They are fair warned.
I think their tank was done on a different day than mine, so it's possible the prep process for mine was the culprit ultimately. I'm crossing fingers that this little fiasco won't have far-reaching effects. Didn't get anything done this weekend (another Auburn, CA fire popped up after the terrible one a couple weeks ago that wiped out a whole neighborhood) and the power was out for many hours.
Happy Monday, y'all.
Tom
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Hi Dan, I think I've stopped being helpful...but mostly because I don't understand the chronology of this car. Maybe others have it all together. I didn't know, for example, that your carb was brand new. I recall you talking about putting a 4bbl on it, but I assumed the stock 2bbl was 40 years old.
I recall the fiasco with the battery and components sparking, but I didn't know the car ran fine before that. A full chronology would be really helpful to prevent comments like mine from being full-blown useless.
Anywho, a volume test really is a pressure test. There's something about Bernoulli's law that comes to mind...but my high school physics is a blur.
Your pump creates a vaccum. If you disconnect the line to the carb, pull the coil wire, and crank your starter, your pump will do its thing. The trick here is to measure how much fuel gets pumped in a certain amount of time/revolutions. I don't have the figures in front of me, but it'll be pretty obvious if your pump is spurting fuel into the container.
I have a glass/replaceable filter on both my coupes and it appears to be "half-filled" when I look at it. If you think about it, that makes sense since the volume of the filter body is so much bigger than the line in. If the filter is clean, then you can pretty much rule out foriegn material, but as Pak said, it's a great idea to blow out your fuel lines to see what kind of chum comes out. If your filter or lines were hosed, they could have fouled your new carb easy enough. I found that out first hand.
In closing, I wouldn't presume to tell anybody who knows how to fly a helicopter how to run their show, but I think more context going forward would be useful to software geeks like me.
Tom
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Hey Dan, I can't help but just agree with Print Dad's earlier comment about "slowing down" and looking at the big picture, but I don't always follow good advice either (see my sealed-tank, pink gas saga).
Before I'd replace my fuel pump, I'd do a volume test.
If you're bent on replacing it, it's 2 bolts (just as RestoRod described). The bolt on the right (face on from the driver's side) is pretty hard to get to from my experience. You need to be patient with that one. The one on the left is simple as pie.
You remove the steel fuel lines with either a 7/16" or 1/2" wrench, but be careful not to to round them out. There's something called a "line wrench" that is more complete than a regular box-end wrench that you might want to use if your lines are old.
In my setup, there's steel coming off the frame, then rubber to the inlet of the pump. There's steel coming from out outlet of the pump up into the carb. It's likely that cars have a combo of rubber hose at that point due to breakage over the years. Those are steel fittings are compression fittings.
The pump comes out easy enough once you wrestle with the right-hand bolt and replacing is simple. Get a new gasket (should come with the pump?).
In closing, I'd hate to see you throw good $$$ at problems that don't really exist. From your description (and I don't see how you got to a bad starter theory to a car that runs, but doesn't accelerate), it *could* be the fuel pump, but I'd bet a danish it's the carb.
There are good tests that prevent you from replacing good components. But if you have dough to burn, have at it.
Tom
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I don't know if it's just unique to this radiator shop, but I did find it odd that he sealed my tank when I specifically asked for it to be boiled out. I had taken a neighborhood friend's Chevy Luv tank along with me to be boiled out AND sealed, so possibly they just screwed up by sealing both, recognizing their error, and not charging me (and saying they threw it in to put the best face on it).
In any case, it didn't work out so good for me, so to anybody considering this service, my recommendation is to buy a new tank. Should have listened to the gang when I had the chance.
Tom
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Hey Dan, I won't pretend to be an expert (just a weekend hacker), but a grinding noise during starting doesn't sound at all like a fuel pump issue. You could shoot a squirt of starting fluid (or just a little gas) down the throat of the carb and it should at least fire up briefly if your starter is good.
The fuel filter showing half-full is not a problem. There's a simple volume test you can do to prove if your fuel pump is producing enough. I don't recall the actual amount, but I'm sure somebody knows (or it's in your manual). Just detach your fuel line to your carb and stick it in a beaker/pitcher or something. Crank for the proscribed amount of time and measure the volume.
I'd bet a box of donuts (I like that phrase now) that it's not your fuel pump based on your "grinding" description initially. But then again, what the heck do I know? (Not that much!)
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Well, I had to replace the starter on my boy's car a few months back. One day it started dandy, the next day it was gone. Not a grinding noise in my case, but it was pretty clear it wasn't doing it's job.
You can bench test it easy enough. Take it out, set it on a stable surface, and apply 12V to the positive lead and ground the black to the body of the starter. If the gear pops out and turns like a mofo, it's probably good.
I can't remember...has this car ever started? I recall lots of stories about smoking electrical components.
Anywho, remove it, test it, and replace it if necessary.
Tom
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Hey Jim, I haven't pulled the carb yet, but I did buy a rebuild kit yesterday while I was out. It's a Holley 600 as it turns out. List number is written down in the garage.
The popping is a very loud and sharp sound, like a small firecracker. Anybody remember "lady finger" style fire crackers? Very sharp and high pitched compared to a more deep explosion. That's what it sounds like. It pops every couple of seconds and I can see the butterfly valve blowing open when it's partially closed. I didn't run it this way for more than 10 seconds because it sounds so terrible. I will definitely try draining the bowls...I didn't realize it could hold that much.
The radiator shop owner was pretty condescending and I just asked for my money back on the job. He said in "6 years, he's never seen this". At one point he said he can't know where I get my gas. That pissed me off. I poured out 8 oz or so of the gas that was still in the tank into a plastic pitcher to show him. It was the SAME color as the sealant. He offered to redo the sealer, but I decided to just go with a new tank. Anyway, that was pretty dissatisfying altogether.
The carb like I said before is really dirty/oily now. LIke a coating of tar all over. If there are small passages in there, I'd have to think they're full of crap now.
But I'll try draining and running with good gas before I embark on a rebuild -- my first ever.
Thanks,
Tom
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Hey Print Dad, the carb is most definitely a Holley. I have to stare at it closer to get the numbers, but it looks like a 650.
I did happen to pull all the plugs today just in case. They looked fine. I cleaned them up, sanded them, and gapped them just for fun before re-installing. Cleaned out the fuel filter one last time then tried running her again from the remote fuel tank. Still pops like the 4th of July. The pinging in the engine is definitely gone though, so that's a good sign.
I stared down the throat of the carb tonight and saw a consistent black film all the way throughout...almost like it was painted black. It comes off with my finger, but I imagine the carb is in rough shape now.
As you said, it was running GREAT before, so I don't imagine it's going to be too serious, but rebuilding a carb is actually quite a great challenge for me.
I'm trying real hard not to bail out and take this to a "professional", but clearly I'm not so great at the mechanical stuff. I'm not so great at any of this stuff but I'm trying hard to learn as I can.
I think I'll pull the carb off over the weekend and see about a rebuild. RevHead makes a good point about the fragile power valve, so I'll see about that along the way.
If I only would have bought a new fuel tank in the first place! Such is life.
Tom
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Ok, so I drained my tank and the gas coming out of there was bright red/pink like the stuff I saw going into my carb. (More on that in a bit).
I drained the fuel system and ran a line to a separate 1Gal tank of fresh/good gas. After priming the system, she started and the pinging/knocking definitely went away, but the god-awful Carb POPPING was non-stop. This is at about 1200 RPMs.
So the good news is the engine is no longer making that terrible racket, but something is still definitely not good (my technical diagnosis). Google research suggests that carb pop is a lean symptom, but I wonder if running all that terrible gas for 20 minutes or more yesterday may have goobered up (another technical term) my carb. Could the plugs have fouled up during that as well? They were new before this... Any ideas on the carb popping? The engine runs quieter but still awful. This is a real pisser because it was running GREAT before all of this.
Back to the gas tank. I called the radiator shop and the guy confirmed the sealer they use is red and in his 5 years of being in business, he hasn't heard of this. He said he'd "take care of it", but now I'm wondering how much damage this thing has caused. My fuel line continues to spew out little red bits even after running about .5 GAL of good gas through it from a clean source.
Grrr.
Tom
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I've never been accused of being overly thoughtful by the wife :), but I'm pretty sure I'm good on those fronts.
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Thanks Print Dad. The gas in the other picture is from one of two 5-gal cans I filled that day. I put 5 gal into the car a couple of weeks ago and left the other as "reserve".
When I was getting ready to start the car for the first time a couple of weeks ago, I cranked the engine until fuel reached the filter and it was clear. It ran just fine during several short runs to flush the cooling system, etc. I haven't put a thing into the tank since then.
I found some vague reference online when Googling that indicated that crappy sealer products leak red dye, but it was only one reference. At this point, I can only assume it's the tank. The car has been in my garage since I bought it, so no chance some hooligan messed with it.
I'll flush out the pink gas from the fuel line and try a separate tank. If that makes things good, I'll take out the tank and bring it the radiator shop for a refund and buy a new tank.
The fuel really is as red/pink as the picture shows. I was amazed.
Tom
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Thanks for the help, guys. Hey Restorod, I'm sure NOS means "new old stock", but what do you mean by "repop"? And are you suggesting that your replacement switch worked to solve the initial problem, but other problems crept in related to the new switch down the line?
Thanks again.
Tom
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I'm going to try running the car from an external tank later today and see if that clears things up. The engine is running really bad and I am concerned about doing damage to it at this rate.
For what it's worth, I installed the boiled out tank about 2 weeks ago, put 5 Gal of fresh gas in it and that's it...no stabilizers, no STP, no octane boost, nothing. I've started the car off and on over those 2 weeks to flush the cooling system and stuff like that. It has always ran really good.
Just yesterday when I took it for it's maiden cruise, the pinging started about 30 seconds into the drive and got progressively worse.
I'm thinking the "sealer" they used must be dissolving/mixing with the fuel?
If this is the case, I'll be really sorry I didn't just buy a new tank (with a drain plug!).
Tom
Holley 600 4160 "popping" loudly. Sad Mustang.
in 1969-70 Technical Forum
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Hey Dan, I had not removed more than 1 spark plug wire at a time when I was cleaning, but there's always the possibility that I screwed up. I'll verify the firing order along the way.
I like the idea of hand-cranking the engine again (did that during the early coaxing into life days), but perhaps there is a stuck valve with all the bad fuel. I don't relish the idea of removing the radiator, fan, and whatnot, but that's life in the big city.
Thanks for the tip.
Tom