Jump to content

foothilltom

Members
 View Profile  See their activity

  • Content Count

    771

  • Joined

  • Last visited

  • Days Won

    2

Posts posted by foothilltom

  1. Posted · Report reply

    Alright, so without question, the gaskets are not correct.  As obvious as this to me now (thanks to you guys), it simply did not occur to me to measure the height of the ports on the heads.  I just ordered a gasket kit like a stooge months ago and never questioned it again even after going a different direction with aluminum after-market heads.

    The port height on the cast iron heads is about 1.81" x 1" and my aluminum heads are 2.05" x 1.25".  As Mach1 pointed out from my photo, the top of the gasket did not even cover the top of the port, which clearly wouldn't be good. 

    Now that I know that an intake manifold gasket has to match the head, I should be able to find what I need as far as port dimensions.

    Edit: Wondering if this gasket may be my friend: Fel-Pro Intake Manifold Gaskets 1262R5 (2.25 x 1.4)

    Now to Barnett's point...I will do the necessary geometry to see if this intake is "stock".  I also have trouble believing somebody would have machined the intake, but I suppose you never know.  The thing that still has me scratching my head was the fact that I could insert a feeler gauge along the edge of the intake and the head.  Maybe I was just getting lucky and poking it into the exact place where the port is, but I don't know.  It's now lost to history as I've removed the intake.

    Last question: would it be useful to put some plastigauge (or some such crap) between the manifold and head and torque it down?  Will the resulting "gap" tell a story if these parts are going to ever live together?  

    Thanks for sticking with me on this.  Nice going looking at the photo in detail, Mach.

     

    Tom

  4. Posted · Report reply

    Hey guys, I've spent the past 60 minutes searching online and can't find an explanation.  Probably because I don't know how to even phrase my question:

    • What the hell is the center port on this Edelbrock Performer 351 intake manifold?  Is it a water port?
    • There is an equivalent port on my cast iron 351W heads, but NOT on my aftermarket aluminum heads
    • Do I need a different intake for these non-standard heads?
    • Is it OK to just cover over the port on the intake with a gasket?

    Picture #1 is the intake with a blue circle around the port in question.  The other picture is my after-market head w/out said port.

    This is related to my other post where I have managed to create a massive vacuum/coolant leak in my fresh 351W rebuild.  The more I look at things, the more confused I get.  Thanks very much for walking me through this (patiently). 

    Tom

    Capture.JPG

    Capture.JPG

  5. Posted · Report reply

    Ok, so I'm still pretty well unsure of my next move.  Would appreciate some insights.  Recapping, I had a huge vacuum and coolant leak in my previous setup. 

    Pulled the intake and have access to all numbers.

    • Intake Manifold: Edelbrock Performer 2181
      • Came with block, have no history with it
      • Not sure to how tell if it's been machined
    • Existing intake manifold gaskets: Fel-Pro 90103-1
      • bought as a kit from Summit many moons ago
      • research now clearly shows these are NOT for a 351W (but a 302)
      • Thickness mics out at .060"
      • Visually, these are a perfect fit for the manifold ports, so there was nothing obviously wrong with them
    • GT40 (clone) aluminum heads bought from sketchy eBay guy, machine shop in Turlock, CA

    Based on everything I've learned so far, the gasket is my #1 suspect, but I'm now wondering if this intake/head combo will work with any "standard" gasket.  According to the website, the recommended Fel-Pro 1250S3 set is only .065" which is just 5/1000th thicker than my existing.  I was able to get a .0025" feeler gauge through my old setup, which seems egregious.

    If somebody could help me understand how to determine if my manifold has been machined, I would appreciate it.  If they've been altered, I'll just chuck them as I'm not going to pull the brand new heads and have them machined to match.  Also wondering if there is a much thicker gasket set...like 1/8" or something for this type of thing.  

    I guess I am not sure how to proceed if the heads are somehow not to the same specification as cast iron heads or if my manifold has been altered.

    Thanks for all your help!

    Tom

  6. Posted · Report reply

    I'll do that right now.  Thanks!

    And yes, based on my smoke test, the manifold was leaking pretty much from front to back, both sides.  Very strange.  I can't wait to see what the culprit is.

    Update: I could get my smallest gauge through from front to back (.0025).  Color me ignorant.  I had no idea it could be so "off".  I wish I would have been more vigilant about that part of the fit.  I was hyper-concerned with the RTV gasket I made in the front and back.  Ironically, that didn't leak at all.  Just the Felpro gasket side.

    The plot thickens.

  7. Posted · Report reply

    Thanks guys.  Going to roll the Mustang into the garage today for the surgery to get out of the hot/wind/dust of the side yard.  It's no fun to take big leaps backwards, but that's how this game goes for the newbie, I suppose.

    I'll take a good, hard look at the intake when it's off and figure out where my culprit is.  Just going to pray I did no real damage to the rotating gear.  I don't think it got over 180F the whole time.  Crossing fingers.

    Update soon, I hope.

    Tom

  8. Posted · Report reply

    Well, it's pretty much terrible news.  As Barnett prophesized, I have coolant in the oil.  I'd say about 10 oz of the stuff give or take.  The result was a slimy (unprotecting) mess.  My luck is I wiped my cam and everything else.

    I guess the good news is I was watching the engine temp during the break-in and it stayed right around 180F.  Hopefully this leak developed after that and has just been a problem in the 40 seconds or so I've run the motor since.

    I am going to go drink my sorrows away.  My attempt to rebuild a motor for a tired, but running Mustang is turning into an all out disaster.  I was so careful every step of the way, so I thought.

    Bleh.

  9. Posted · Report reply

    Hey guys, I used the gaskets that came with my 351 Felpro Gasket "kit" from Summit Racing.  It's been months, so it's fuzzy, but they were definitely NOT specific to the manifold.  As I recall, they were blue and NOT steel core.  I guess I can chalk that up to first-time-engine-build stupidity.    "A little thicker" would definitely be a good thing based on what I'm seeing.  I re-torqued the intake bolts a bit ago and it leaks from the save (several places) along the edge where it meets the heads.

    Answering Barnett's questions (and I'm not trying to be withholding...just not always sure what is relevant).

    • Aftermarket GT-40 clone heads from eBay.  The seller has a speed shop in Turlock, CA and I found out (much later after buying them) that he has about 80% bad reviews on Yelp/Google.  He keeps changing his eBay seller name, so I had no idea.    Here is a link that is current today of the same heads.  https://www.ebay.com/itm/Ford-289-302-351W-408-427-5-0-Mustang-Aluminum-Heads-GT40-EFI-OR-carburetor/372038104093?hash=item569f32f41d:g:LkoAAOxy~iJQ9irb:sc:UPSGround!94550!US!-1
    • Holley 600 cfm carb.  The type with no idle-mixture on the secondary.  Nearly new but sat for a year or so during the project.
    • Agreed I need to adjust the float.  Based on what you said, the gas is about an 1/8" too high
    • Based on my Groucho Marx cigar test, it appears to be leaking all along the edge, but mostly in the middle.  I will drain the oil and see if there is water.
    • Re-torquing the bolts made no diff, so you're right about the aluminum not "moving".  That was a pipe dream of mine.

    I suppose its worth mentioning that the intake just came with the 351 block that I rebuilt.  I should have put some thought into it, but I just wound up using it.  Performer 351-W if that matters.

    If this boils down to me putting the intake on w/out the proper gaskets, then I am an idiot, but I can live with that.  My fear is that the aluminum heads have some manufacturing flaw and I got swindled, but hopefully not.

    Looks like I've got a whole bunch of re-work to do.  Thanks for your continued support.

    Tom

  11. Posted · Report reply

    And to answer Barnett's questions (I didn't see them until after I posted my latest).

    • I do believe the float is too high...the fuel is right at the front hole after immediately shutting down the motor.  I will adjust that
    • My "smoke test" revealed a pretty bad vacuum leak at the intake manifold to aluminum heads - ugh!  Not sure what to do there.
    • Cam is a mild street cam from Comp Cams.  I can get the grind number, but it's just a skosh more duration than stock.
    • Compression is really good.  Measured at 175 all the way around
    • Initial timing was 8B based on the only time I could get a timing light going.  Since then I can't keep it running long enough.
    • I was really careful about finding TDC on #1 during the build process, so I'd like to think my diz is aligned correct.  Wouldn't bet my life on the timing now that I've been messing around so much, but I'm erring on the side of too much advance if anything.  Using my ear more than anything now.

    With regards to the vacuum leak I discovered (with a dang cigar, no less)...is it possible that developed during the break-in period when the motor got hot for the first time?  I'm hesitant to torque down on the bolts, but I'm wondering how much these two pieces of aluminum could have "altered" during the break-in.

    Again, ideas are super welcome.

    Tom

  12. Posted · Report reply

    An update.  I tried Scotty Kilmer's (youtube dork) "cigar test" and I can easily see a fairly huge leak where my Edelbrock Performer 351-W aluminum intake mates up with my GT-40 clone, Chinese-made aluminum heads.  We're talking a pretty huge leak, all along the entire edge.

    So, I'm pretty horrified.  When I was intalling the intake (on the stand, months ago), I pretty much lovingly installed the gaskets, a tiny bit of clear RTV on the edges, and let the Felpro gaskets do their thing.  I torqued down each intake bolt in the proscribed order to the proscribed torque spec (which I can no longer remember).

    Yet this thing is clearly leaking live the proverbial sieve.  What the hell.  Is there any reason to go back and apply a bit more torque to the intake bolts are am I just pissing up rope now?  It breaks my heart to think about pulling the intake off while the motor is in the car because it's just so dang hard to work on and it's dirty/windy out there.  

    Ugh.  Thoughts, ideas,  etc. are very much appreciated.

  13. Posted · Report reply

    Thanks!  Your point about the vac leak is well-taken.  I assembled the motor myself and remember feeling a bit hinky when I set aside the cork intake manifold gaskets and used RTV instead.  The connection point between the intake and the block just seems so...imprecise...and relying on a proper bead of RTV has me suspecting that I may have created a gigantic vacuum leak.  In any case, I wish I could keep it running long enough to adequately test for a vac leak.  I may try the "cigar smoke" method and do a static test.  

    And yes, my Holley only has mixture screws on the primary side.  I've experimented with putting them all the way in and several turns out and have not noticed a change in behavior, so I suspect you're right that my issue is more severe.  I can't wait for the day when I can turn those screws to dial in the optimum vac/idle behavior.

    I'm going to pull the carb again and get my 3x reader lenses on and get down to business looking for blockages.  I may also swap a friends Holley on a running car just to see if that grossly changes the behavior I'm describing while I'm inspecting mine.

    I'd really like to find the culprit.  I appreciate the assist.  

     

  14. Posted · Report reply

    Hi guys, I'm just at my wits end.  Swapped a rebuilt 351W for a tired 302 in my 69 coupe.  351W lovingly rebuilt by yours truly.  Installed in car after a brief 20 month project. 

    Was able to run the motor for about 20 minutes at around 2500 rpm to achieve some kind of break-in, so I'm very glad about that.  But after that initial 20 to 30 minutes of run-time, something strange has crept in and I can't keep the motor running.

    The vexing behavior that I'd love to get ideas for:

    • She cranks/starts 100% of the time
    • Motor runs VERY FAST (like 2000 rpm) for about 2 seconds, then dies quickly (no sputter like she's trying to keep going)
    • If I goose the throttle, I can keep it running indefinitely, but it requires constant attention (makes it hard to get other diagnostics)

    As this car had sat for several years during the project (with California gas), I suspected various fuel-related issues, so I replaced the 50 year old fuel cell, fuel lines, and replaced a suspect fuel filter.  I also pulled the carb (for the ump-teenth time), cleaned it up, adjusted the floats, etc.  Armed with a fresh fuel-delivery system, I was hopeful, but exact same behavior as before: quick start, runs SUPER FAST, then dies utterly.  

    Since it just quits so suddenly, I suspected a fuel-pressure issue so I checked the sight plug on the carb and gas is definitely coming out easily, so the primary bowl is definitely full.
     
    The fact that I can keep it running by opening the throttle is interesting.  Seems to indicate a carb/fuel problem more than ignition, wouldn't you say?  To me, that indicates the accelerator pump is delivering fuel on demand, but somehow the normal fuel circuits are somehow not doing their part?  The Holley carb has only about 20 hours of operation on it, but it did sit for 2 years while I slowly went about the engine swap.  I did not dip the carb, just sprayed it out after disassembly.
     
    Some random thoughts:
    * Am reasonably sure the timing is in the correct neighborhood (8B), but not 100% since I can't get it to idle long enough
    * I meticulously found 0TDC on #1 during the build and my balancer/timing mark is dead on correct
    * When installing the diz, I made extra sure I have #1 corresponding with 0TDC (not 180 off)
    * Idle/Mixture screws on carb are in "default" position 1.5 turns out from closed
    * Not sure if I have a vacuum leak, but I see about a reading of 18 on my vac gauge when I do have it running
     
    The distributor is an "OEM" product I found on eBay.  I have a very old Petronix I unit in there and a 9V coil from the old days.  I do not have a spare dizzy to test.
     
    Weird that it starts, runs fast, then dies.  Would really appreciate some ideas or similar experiences.
     
    I really think I suck at this hobby.
    Tom

  15. Posted · Report reply

    Mis-spoke about the NOS dizzy.  It was a refurbished OEM distributor.  Photo from eBay attached.  Need to stop buying eBay parts in the middle of the night after a long day of wrenching.

    But yes, I definitely have spark, though that was a challenge until I realized I needed a full 12V to a new Flamethrower Coil (in combination with a first-generation Pertronix ignition unit and this dizzy).  With the stock coil, she wouldn't spark at all.  Wired 12V from the battery (as a temporary measure) and I can get it to fire up but she won't stay running w/out me constantly working the throttle.

    I'll post a separate message about my startup woes (there have been many), but I suppose at the moment, I suspect my brand new Holley carb, or my remanufactured dizzy, or something else entirely.  It will start, run for a bit, then lean out and die.  Carb bowl appears to be full and the accel pump is working great, so I'm thinking I have plenty of fuel pressure.  Gonna make sure I'm advanced enough today...been hard to get a reliable timing read because I can't get her to run without the vacuum advance line hooked up...  makes me think my timing is retarded.

    Anywho, I do appreciate the response.

    Capture.JPG

  16. Posted · Report reply

    eBay.  But the gods were not smiling.  I'm having all kinds of interesting problems that point to ignition and I'm starting to wonder if this distribution was truly new or refurbished or worse.  I may need to switch again.  Grr.  May post my woes elsewhere in case people have run into my hard-to-start, won't-run issues during breakin.

  18. Posted · Report reply

    Hi guys.  Wondering about the correct setup for the fuel lines in the engine compartment.  My poor Mustang was no doubt hacked up in its previous life and I want to get it relatively stock.  

    • Is the line going into the fuel pump (from the port on the engine compartment) supposed to be flexible tubing with an inline fuel filter?  In other words, the filter is not up around the intake manifold?
    • Is the line coming OUT of the fuel pump (to the carb) supposed to be a single piece of crazily bent steel tubing with threaded pipe connections on both ends?

    Did the stock carb have a threaded connection for the fuel inlet?  The holley I plan to run just has the slip-on fuel inlet.

    I hope these questions make sense.  Just wondering about the right way to approach this.

  20. Posted · Report reply

    Hi guys,  quick background: 302 to 351W swap.  Going reasonably well.  I managed to sell my old intake manifold along with all the fittings.  Need a vacuum fitting for my 351W intake with at least two ports (photo of original included).  Thing is, I am not sure how to search for these.  Are they called a "vacuum tree"  or "vacuum fitting" or something else?  Anybody have a suggestion where one could get one relatively cheap?

    Thanks!

    Tom

    Capture.JPG

  22. Posted · Report reply

    Hey guys.  Need a cap for a stock Motorcraft 351W dizzy I found on eBay (replacing my fugly HEI dizzy I originally bought).  Am wondering what folks would recommend.  Between Summit, Napa, O'Reilly, and Autozone, they all seem to stock a different brand and none gets more than 3 stars.  So that's a concern.

    I don't know if it's possible, but do they sell an HEI/Male socket type  cap for a stock diz?  It seems like there is a much wider variety of spark plug wires for that setup compared to the "socket style" cap.

    To make a long story short, need a cap, rotor, and wires for a stock diz.  Wondering if the HEI style cap is possible for looks.

    Thanks!

  25. Posted · Report reply

    Hi guys, doing a 302 to 351 engine swap on my 69 coupe (standard hood w/faux scoop) and I'm sitting her totally unsure if my setup is going to fit under the hood.  Does anybody know generically how much space there is between, say, an Edelbrock Performer manifold and the hood?

    Sadly, I didn't take any good measurements before removing the original 302 and the current motor is sitting on an engine stand in the garage, so I feel like this is all going to come down to installing the motor and finding out the hard way, but I'm hopeful there is some way to get out in front of this.

    This drama all started when I bought an HEI dizzy from Summit (still wondering if this was a good idea) as I had no original dizzy to use.  This thing is gigantic with the coil built into the top.  Mocking it all up, I would need a 1" carb spacer plus the 1/2" air cleaner spacer that came with it.  The air cleaner seems to be low profile compared to my original, but I'm sure this setup is going to be at least 1" higher than my previous setup.

    In summary: Performer 351-W intake, Holly carb, "oval shaped" air cleaner from Summit, HEI dizzy

    Including a photo with arrows pointing to the two spacers (1" block of wood and the plastic space that came with the air cleaner)

    Thoughts and opinions are very much appreciated.

    Tom

    20190506_163041.jpg

×
×
  • Create New...