Klutch

I agree. It's already much better than I expected. I think most people would agree that if you compare iron heads to iron heads, the Cleveland spanks all over the Windsor. So, I guess the big questions is how the Cleveland iron heads compare to the aftermarket Windsor heads. I'm also anxious to see the power curve with the Cleveland 2V heads vs. the 4V heads. The guys on the Cleveland forum say much of what we here about the 4V heads being too big and having no low-end is a myth. They chalk it up poor builds, which would make sense.

I didn't think they were going to use the EFI on the Windsor. I caught a brief shot in the preview and I'm pretty sure both engines had a carb sitting on top. I doubt they could use the factory EFI. I'm sure it's quite shot.

I just watched the show. I must say, I was pleasantly surprised. We started off with the crew combing a salvage yard for a Cleveland and a Windsor. They pulled a Cleveland from an old LTD and a Windsor from a newer truck with EFI. They showed some easy identification points between the two engines. Then they pointed out interior differences during the teardown process. They're going to run the 2V heads on the Cleveland to start. Then they're going to switch to 4V heads. They installed a single profile cam, which may not bode well for the Cleveland. And they're boosting the compression to 10:1. The 2V heads were machined for screw-in, adjustable rocker studs. They also installed beehive valve springs. The Windsor they're using is a roller motor. So, perhaps the W will have an advantage if they use a new roller cam. Looking forward to next week!

Here's a link from the Mustangsunlimited web site: http://www.mustangsunlimited.com/itemdy00.asp?T1=6675BL+01 Just a standard Mustang 351C oil pan.

Why not go with an overdrive trans? It will make the car much more driveable. And it's only a little more involved that installing a 4-speed.

The Boss 351 was 71 only. Yeah, it's a different car. But I don't think the oil pans were any different. Check some online catalogues. I think some of the Ford trucks had unique oil pans. But most other cars used the same oil pan.

If you get a standard, front sump, 351C oil pan, it should fit your Mustang. If you get a baffled pan, like the Boss 351 oil pan, you can run an extra quart of oil for a total of 6 quarts. While the Cleveland doesn't really need this extra quart, it's nice to have.

I don't know the value. Just be sure you know how much it's going to cost you to restore it. Of course, that number will go up and the project progresses. But I'd hate for you to be pulling your hair out after paying to replace frame rails and torque boxes in addition to scouring the internet for precious CJ parts. If it starts to get a little too rich for you, consider finding a small block Mach 1. Those still aren't cheap. But they are less expensive to buy and build than an R-Code Mach 1. Of course, the big advantage with restoring an R-Code is it will be worth more than an M-Code when you're done. But getting there can be a bear.

I don't think it's the same car. The care you're looking at appears to be blue a "bronze" fender. I also doubt someone went through the effort of patching the very large shock tower holes in that Florida car. I couldn't venture to guess a value with so little information. Primary considerations will be original options, the amount of rust and how many original parts it's missing. And big block muscle cars aren't fetching what they were before 2008.

Did only the CJ Mach 1 Mustangs get the nodular iron third member? My '70 Mach 1 has the original 9" rear end. But it's just a 3.0 open differential. I doubt it would be a nodular iron example.

Most Mustang parts are pretty cheap and readily available; except for 428 Mustang parts. A lot of those under-the-hood parts were specific not just to the 428 engine, but the 428 engine in a Mustang. I admit I'm not an expert on the subject. But a guy in my Mustang club owns a very nice '69 Mach 1 with the original 428 SCJ and he often tells me how crazy the prices are getting for 428 Mustang parts. Which gets into the pictures. It appears someone went crazy with a can of Krylon semi-gloss black. That's no big deal. But I don't see any accessory brackets. Definitely ask the seller if he has those specific brackets. If he says something like, "Oh, I've got something laying around that will work", that might not cut it for a 428 Mustang. I understand the exhaust manifolds are also pretty pricey. I'm sure the guys who are currently driving one of these cars can provide accurate, amplifying info. The car you're looking at does have a shaker, which is really cool. If it was missing, you could expect to pay up to $2,000 to get a complete 428 shaker setup. That appears to be a Mallory Unilite distributor. Those are nice distributors, but again, the original would be best. If it's missing, that affects the value. A '69 R-Code Mach 1 might be more comparible to a 396 Camaro, or a '69 Z/28. The big block Camaros had some unique parts under the hood and the original Z/28 302 engines are pretty hard to find. It does get worse. I've heard horror stories from people trying to restore a Boss 429 Mustang. Those things have all kinds of rare and unique parts. FYI, I've heard the Ford FE engines can be expensive to build. I've never built one myself. But I do know it's not like building a small block Ford; and certainly not like building a small block Chevy.

Good to know.

If you're not in a big hurry, I would recommend ordering a Marti Report on the car. All you need is the VIN and it's a small fee for a basic report. Marti will email you the report in a few days. It will tell you exactly when the car was built, where it was built, where it was delivered and every option ordered on the car. Considering the cost of an R Code Mach 1 and the potential for it to be bogus, I think the cost of a Marti report is cheap insurance. Also, knowing which options originally came on the car goes a long way with determining value. Many people ordered a big block Mach 1 back then with 4-wheel drum brakes. (They believed the discs created extra drag and affected 1/4 mile times, or something.) If, for example, the Marti report doesn't list disc brakes as an option, yet there are discs on the car, likely someone threw on Granada brakes at some point and that would lower the value. I'm pretty sure all the R-Code Mach 1 Mustangs automatically came with a tachometer. If it's there, great. If it's missing, that lowers the value. So, with your Marti report and a list of all the things that should be on the car, give it a good look and check off everything that's there. (Oil Cooler: Check. Rear anti-sway bar: check, etc.) Politely point out to the seller anything that's missing. It's a given that missing original parts lowers the value. Anyone who argues otherwise is delusional. This is especially important for an R-Code Mach 1 as these cars had many unique parts. And procuring them is difficult and EXPENSIVE. Even small things like accessory brackets can be a bear. And emissions parts? Oh, the humanity! Of course, if this particular car has hard to find parts, like the original emissions equipment, that adds to the value. It's only fair. Keep us posted!

I'm hoping that's what it is. But I'm fearful they'll take a stroked Windsor crate motor with aluminum heads and run it against a stock Cleveland with a broomstick of a cam and say, "Wow, what a great buy this 351w crate motor from Bubba's Engine Supply is. It beat the Cleveland!".

Here's a pic of the taillight panel when I was trying to line it up. It simply wasn't possible with a bent frame rail. Althought it looks OK on the top, it's 5/8" too high on the bottom which means there's nothing to weld to down there. I just shot some primer on the car so I can have it hauled to the frame shop. I used SPI red epoxy. Below are some pics.

FWIW, based on my experience, whenever you have a starter problem, buy a new starter! I have tried replacing individual components. I have tried buying salvage starters. These always turned out to be temporary solutions. I ended up being stranded (again!) and having to buy a new starter anyway. Some auto parts stores still offer a lifetime warranty on their starters. Last year the starter on my Jeep Comanche fried. I had bought it over ten years prior in another state. Auto Zone happily exchanged the fried starter for a new example. And, although I typically avoid buying parts from Auto Zone, O'Reilly and Advance Auto, I think since the starter lasted ten years, it was a decent part.

- Lunati Voodoo 268/276 - Blue Thunder intake, if you can find one. Otherwise, Edelbrock Air Gap. - 750 CFM Edelbrock or Holley carb - Factory distributor with a Boss 302 ignition curve, Pertronix III and around 16 degrees of advance Those are my suggestions. :thumbup1:

Hey, nice patch!

Be careful when you go to rebuild your Cleveland. You can't build it like a small block Chevy and expect it to perform well. The Cleveland is a unique engine. If you build it right, it will be a street terror. If you don't build it right, it will be a dog at lower RPMs. That's why you hear people say the Cleveland 4V heads are just too big. They built it like a Chevy, then complained it was a dog. You might get some suggestions on the 351 Cleveland forum. The guys who hang out there live, breathe and race those engines.

If you do the Arning/Shelby drop on the front upper control arms, that will lower the front end just under an inch, as well as improve handling, without having to mess with cutting springs. I've read a lot of positive comments about the 4-1/2 leaf springs; seems to be a good compromise between something just a little beefier than the factory springs while providing a good ride. I will probably install those on my Mach 1. I ordered a front end rebuild kit from Performance Suspension Technology many years ago and I was very happy with it. I especialy like their Polygraphite bushings. They're impregnated with graphite and do not squeak. Those bushings are black and appear stock unless you really get up close. Just don't use urethane bushings on the strut rods. I've seen pictures of broken strut rods that were attached with urethane bushings. Otherwise, running urethane or rubber bushings is a matter of personal preference. PST has urethane and rubber bushing kits. They have factory replacement kits and mutilple levels of performance kits. Going with a 1" sway bar up front and a 3/4" out back seems to work well for most street Mustangs. I also plan to use roller spring perches. Apparently, those things are the bees knees. Everyone raves about them. And they're not all that expensive. So, you might want to consider those for your front end kit.

Sorry to hear about your little girl's hearing issues. I hope the surgery goes well for her. The Mach 1 will still be there when she's home and recovered.

Mustangs Unlimited and NPD also sell Dynacorn parts. They may not be advertised as such. It's a good idea to call and talk to a rep. Ask who makes the part and for the best quality part available. IMO, yes, it's worth it to pay extra for a higher quality part. True, it's adds to the cost of the project. But I think it's money well spent. I've used some Dynacorn parts and I was happy with them for the most part. I also used a few parts from a Canadian company called Spectra Premium. I was more impressed with their parts than Dynacorn parts. I installed two long floor pans made by Spectra Premium. The metal is a heavier gauge than the Dynacorn floor pans. Also, they match the original 69/70 floor pans almost exactly. Unlike other pans, the ribbing in the pans runs in the correct direction. Other floor pans I've seen are the opposite, like earlier Mustang pans. The Spectra Premium pans do have an extra hole in front of the seat pan which the original pans did not have. What I like about MU is everything I order is in stock. On only one occasion was something back-ordered and they told ahead of time. It took only a couple of extra days to get. (CJ Pony Parts is notorious for taking your order and not telling you everyting is on back-order. They might be a little cheaper on price, but I don't like dealing with back-ordered parts all the time.) Oh yeah, if you can find what you need at a swap meet, go for it. You can inspect the part before you buy it. You also have to be sure it's the right part. If it doesn't fit, you probably can't return it. Thus far, I've ordered all my parts from Mustangs Unlimited and I've been very happy with them. I call their Atlanta number and order my parts over the phone. My order is always waiting on my porch within three days. MU has a Buyer's Club. You pay $25.00 to join and then get a 5% discount on everything you order for one year. With any Mustang project, this will quickly pay for itself and then some. On only one occasion was a part on back-order and they told me up front. CJ Pony Parts is notorious for taking your order and not telling you everything is on back-order. CJ Pony may be a little cheaper on parts, but I don't like dealing with back-orders all the time.

Keep in mind that before the plethora of reasonably priced aluminum heads were available, people would port the factory, iron heads with great results. Thus, even when buying a stroked Windsor short block, I think it would be a good idea to talk with some local machinists about getting the heads ported. It may be so expensive it's just better to buy some aftermarket heads. But you never know, the shop might need the work and cut you a deal. And many an old-timer Ford racer has told me you can get great power from a set of ported 351W heads. I recall one analogy comparing stock heads with ported heads; "It's like Jekyl and Hyde".

Wow, great pics, as always. Thanks. I'll have to dig out my seat belts and take another look. No hurry. I'm still trying to get some primer on the car!

Like, much higher, or much lower? My hardware is in pretty good shape. I think I just need new webbing.