Max Power

Alright, I will give this one more shot since none of it seems to be getting through. After this I am done, as I am sure the moderators would rather not have these sorts of "discussions" I mentioned that I passed my ASE Master in 82 as a way of telling you that you are NOT the only one doing this for 40 years, as you have mentioned on this forum many many times, especially if your advice is challenged. While usually good, sometimes, your advice is not above being challenged. You don't need a degree in fluid dynamics to understand how cooling systems work. The thermostat sets the floor for the cooling system, not the ceiling. You say that by having a thermostat open at 160, it's too early, and being always open, the coolant is flowing too fast to properly cool. OK, fair enough in theory, although you have to disregard that the thermostat also acts as a restrictor plate even wide open, unlike completely removing it. But lets say I am stuck in traffic. Things start to heat up. I have a stat that either opens at 160 or 180, you pick. As I am heating up, the car is now running 195. The stat is now wide open, regardless of which one you picked. And it is still getting warmer. And it keeps going. So tell me, in that situation, what possible difference does it make if the stat opened at 160 or 180, when at any temp above that opening temp, it stays pinned wide open and I am STILL getting hotter? The stat sets the floor, I am bouncing off the ceiling. If, by your theory, stat wide open flows too fast to properly cool, how does a 180 stat solve that problem above temps of 180? The argument that a 160 stat flows too much to be effective is fair, if you expect the car to run at 160, which it may not, but it really has no bearing on a car that is running up to 220 at idle. While 160 stats are a band aid, they really don't cause cars to overheat at that level, because if cars are running up to 225, a 180 stat or a 195 stat cant change that. They are wide open too. Being more specific about your complaint that I am contradicting you...... You are telling me my 160 stat flows too much, not allowing the coolant to stay on the radiator long enough to cool (debatable, as a stat is a restriction by design, by engineers who have no interest in outflowing a radiator's cooling abilities), yet your other recommendations are a 180 High Flow stat, a new High Flow water pump, and now, a reduced sized pulley (which would also increase the speed of the water pump creating high flow.) Is it me that is contradicting you or is it YOU that is contradicting you? Telling you that I wont use water wetter is not an argument against water wetter, it's a reality of living in Minnesota. That's not a contradiction. We need 50% anti-freeze here. Even you don't believe 3 degrees in timing will have any profound effect. .060 over? Not a problem at any speed above 10mph. I am sorry if you see that is a contradiction, but that is what is happening. I realize .060 creates more heat, but for me it has not been an issue when there is airflow. The reason I am only asking which fans pull more air is because in my situation, that it the right question to ask. The car flat out does not over heat anything 10mph and above, indicating that all of your non air flow related responses are not really relevant to the issue at hand. None of them are a problem when air is moving through the radiator. And at idle, clearly I do not have enough air moving through the radiator. The lower than normal drive train is the biggest issue, which I stated in the OP. My solutions could be....1. Get a better pulling fan and it will be enough to get by,.... 2. Find a way to raise the drive train to make the fan line up, making better use of the shroud, or 3. Upgrade to an electric fan system and the subsequent charging system upgrades to run it. I am starting with option 1, which circling back, is exactly the question I posed in the first place.

Thanks Danno, appreciate it. Unfortunately, unless I raise the engine, I am limited to a 17" fan at present, so bigger fans like the BB clutch fan mentioned won't really fit, as they will hit the tranny cooling lines at the bottom. I bought the fan from Flexalite that Barnett listed a while ago. Went for a test fit last night, and the blades protrude too far forward on the radiator side and hit the radiator, so now I have a shorter spacer ordered from NPD, which won't be here until next week. I am hoping this fan will pull just enough more air where the gap in my shroud matters less. This problem really only occurs on warm days stuck in traffic, I am trying not to spend hundreds of dollars here to solve a twice a year problem. The best true fix would be to convert to a 3G alternator and a Contour fan setup, but that is a lot of messing around for how little I have this problem. That's why I am taking the "fan with better pull" approach first. And frankly, if I can't fix the way it is now, I can drive around it, to some extent. Do you hit any of the local shows? If so, which car is yours? I hit North St Paul fairly often, Anoka once a year, sometimes Hastings, and all the fairground shows.

I prefer it looking aluminum, I think it looks better that way, just like aluminum heads. Tells people something cool is going on under the hood. That color is the 1969 factory color Champagne Gold. Its a very pale gold, depending on the light. It almost looks different in every picture I take. I was going to leave the rear spoiler off, but decided at the last minute I needed a dash of black to compliment the GT stripes. Thanks for the kind words.

Interesting. I passed my ASE Master in 1982. You seem to have a general assumption that everyone here has no idea how things work. The initial question was simple. I wanted to know what people were running for fans. I asked that because my car shows absolutely no signs of running warm at any speeds above 10mph, when there is adequate airflow. It's very simple to see that I need to improve my airflow through the radiator at idle. In spite of this, you tell me I need to bump timing 3 degrees. You tell me I need to run 15% anti-freeze after I have told you I live in Minneapolis and my garage is not heated. You tell me I should sleeve rather the .060, as if 8 sleeves in a 351w block makes any sense at all. On top of that, you tell me I need a 180 stat because my 160 "flows too much" and in the next breath you recommend a high flow water pump. You are pretty much telling me all sorts of things that I didn't ask about. This combo runs just fine with decent airflow through the radiator. Period. That's why I asked about fan options. For big block Fords, as you know the radiator has frame mounts below and a saddle mount. It's pretty hard to lower the radiator below the frame that is it's foundation. I also never stated that bore size DOES NOT have any effect on cooling requirements. I have no idea where you got that notion. Frankly, I am sick of your condescending and arrogant attitude to just about everybody here. Feel free to no longer "help". Make sure you remind people how experienced you are on the way out of this thread's door.

Yes, the gap is too big, which I said from the start. It is a big part of my airflow problem, which is why I also stated that probably a full electric fan setup is probably the ultimate solution, given no simple explanation for fixing the air gaps. Interested in reasonable solutions to raising the entire drive train 2". Nothing comes to immediate mind. .060 wasn't ideal, but it was already .040 over and a head gasket ring scored the cylinder wall enough that I needed to go .060. I did have it sonic checked and it cleared, but I understand the extra load I am putting on the cooling system. Not an issue at anything with proper airflow, though....

Awesome Danno, very kind offer. I have the fan that Barnett recommended on the way, lets see how that works first. The reason I started this thread as "Cooling Fan Options" is because I am pretty convinced I have an airflow problem at idle. This car shows no signs of running hot at all when there is demonstrate-able airflow through the radiator. ie 15mph on up. While all the other suggestions are well intentioned and can't be ruled out completely, given how comfortable the car is running at any sort of speed, I don't think 3 degrees timing or water wetter or high flow water pumps or even thermostats are my immediate problem. (I did buy a 180 stat as a next step should the fan make no difference.) The thing that baffles me most is how low the engine sits in relation to the radiator. I have never had a 69/70 like it, the car has never been hit, had a down to the shell resto with everything checking out, I am using standard motor mounts and factory radiator mounts. It just doesn't make a lot of sense. In the grand scheme, I should just convert to electrics and just be done with it, but I am stubbornly fighting it tooth and nail. More as developments occur.

No gallery but I documented the heck out of this resto. I have lots or progress pics. A couple more final pics.

Then why does it cool down just fine on the highway after running hot in traffic? Water never flows faster than with a wide open high flow stat at 3500 rpm on the highway, and it cools down great there. You would think that if coolant was flowing too fast to cool, it would also occur on the highway. Also, wouldn't recommending a high flow water pump as above just exacerbate that issue? The DEI radiator relief is the additive I mentioned earlier, I just looked it up and recognized the bottle. It made no measurable difference. Unfortunately, in Minneapolis, unless you have a heated garage, that formula you listed will freeze. I don't want to flush and fill every spring and fall. We use 50/50 up here because we need it. Here is the gap for the fan at the top, by the way. It measures three inches at the top with barely an inch to clear. I could lower the shroud mounting on the radiator by drilling new mounting points, but then the shroud would hit the tranny lines and lower rad hose.

I don't have my curve chart handy at the moment. I can tell you that I was running 6 degrees advanced for years on both the last build of this motor and this build with the same curve. The old 351 build ran fine, it was mostly stock. When I built the stroker out of it and had to go .060 over is when it started to run hotter around town, understandable given the increased displacement and maximum bore. Due to a little bit of detonation, I decided to start using a couple gallons of 110 octane in with my 93, and bumped initial up to 12. That brought some of the old snort back, but through all that, the cooling system has been behaving exactly the same. I ordered that fan you recommended just now, should be able to put it on this weekend. When I upgraded to the aluminum radiator last fall, it did run a bit cooler on the highway, but around town didn't change, confirming that this is more of an airflow at idle problem than anything else, I suspect.

I will attempt a fan pic tonight. Do you have a link to the clutch fan assembly you went with? I think either this or the Flex a lite that Barnett listed might be a big improvement.

As long as there is a thermostat in there, it should not flow beyond that radiators ability to cool. They have the proper restrictions built into them, even wide open. Removing the stat completely, you are absolutely correct. If I pulled the stat out completely, I would expect to overheat on the highway as well.

69 Fastback, a factory 351w H code with FMX auto. Today it is .060 over, 398ci stroker kit, Edelbrock heads, roller cam conversion, Hedman shorties, 750 Holley....the predictable stuff. When sitting in traffic, the needle steadily climbs into the H range on the factory gauge. I have a 160 high flow stat, stock water pump, factory shroud, and what looks like a 5 blade 17" flex fan of unknown aftermarket origin. Going down the highway with my 24" ACP aluminum radiator, it hardly gets pas the "E" in Temp. Get stuck in traffic, slowly crawls up to H past Temp. I would like to find a mechanical solution, although there is a bit of a rub. The engine in my chassis seems to sit low. When using the repro shroud, my fan blades hit the shroud at the bottom, and have a lot of clearance at the top. As such, I have to cut out a section at the bottom so the fan will clear. The fan blades come within an inch of my tranny cooling lines. I don't have convertible motor mounts. I really would like to avoid electric fans, as I don't want to re-wire the car and add modern electric to power it. I can think of two solutions: 1. Upgrade the mechanical fan without increasing size. Does this sound like an option? Are factory fans styles better at pulling air than aftermarket flex fans? Are there better flex fans out there? Would converting to a clutch fan work better? 2. Get an electric pusher fan, wire it directly to a toggle switch and manually turn it on when stuck in traffic. I have seen people do this and they say it works. That amount of selective load, running straight off the battery, probably wouldn't tax my charging/wiring system too much. Seems ghetto, but, ya know.... Thoughts on how I can make my system better?

Here ya go!

Thanks guys. I will try with the hood down when I get a few minutes and the sun is not glaring.

Interesting. In all the years I have been playing with these cars, rebuilding the booster every decade or so has never been an issue. I think that is a pretty aggressive recommendation. I would hazard to guess that most unmolested cars here are running their original boosters with no issues.

Does the stator lug provide a full 12v? I heard when Ford switched to electric chokes in the seventies, the Autolite carbs choke element required less volts than 12v, and people putting Holleys on in those applications were getting jammed up because they though the factory lead would work. The Holley requires 12v, and the factory lead was supplying less. Thoughts?

Converter selection is limited, replacement pans are "good luck", they are heavy, but with a decent shift kit, they work great.

LOL....yeah....you have to be more specific. Scat makes the kits for specific apps for common cars like Mustangs and Camaros, but you can just get the raw materials as well, I believe. Of course, the upholstery guys always bitch about the fit, but it works pretty well. Come to think of it, their seat adapters fit pretty crappy as well. Other project I did last fall was a new ACP radiator. Like the mount and fit on these waaaay better than universal ones.

Kind of a task I finally got around to. I put Scat ProCar Rallyes in my car when I restored it 5 years ago, and the original rear seat vinyl was OK but kind of worn with a split in the hump. Scat now offers fabric to match their seats, so I got some fabric last fall and sent the seats off to a local upholstery guy. Got em back last weekend and here they are.

Don't let anybody touch it that doesn't have gray hair! :)

I tend to be a little wary of Ford literature, especially pre-release literature. I have seen Ford literature offering the Boss 429 in Cougars as well. It never went to production.

I had Specialty make me some custom GT wheels with the argent centers in 15x7 and 15x8, so I am sticking with them. I am actually waiting for Coker to make either the Redline Radials or the Firestone Wide Oval tires in the new radial design in sizes I want so I can go full retro.

The new technology in tires leaves old tires in the dust, but to use most of it on a car like ours, you would probably be looking at upgrading to 17" or 18" wheels. Shorter sidewalls are part of what makes them work, and our old 14" and 15" rims look pretty silly with low profile tires on them. Also, modern suspensions really get the most out of the tires and vice versa. So, I live with the inherent flaws of the BFG Radial TAs and soldier on.

I do know Ford in many models did not offer AC with 4 speed 428 CJ cars, I think out of fear of what could happen to the AC compressors at high rpm. AC with a 427 makes even less sense, but people could always swap on their own.