prayers1

My Engine and trans are out. I'm upgrading my PS & PB's, also plans are to build a Cleveland with 500hp or more. My shock towers are in good shape. Do I really need to reinforce the shock towers if I have the Export Brace and Monte Carlo Bar? If so, I see different kits, some with more or less pieces,which to get? Do the parts need to be welded all around or at certain spots? My dilemma is that my right side header was a papers width from the shock tower, will the plate reach up that high and interfere with the header. I plan on getting adjustable motor mounts to move the engine more to the left. Are there plates made with header cut outs? Thanks in advance for your help!

Joe, Can you post it here?

Here's a Mitchell Repair Manual on testing the Ford/Thompson Pump. I'm not really sure if they are reporting the pressure needed to run. Maybe someone can figure that out As Mach1_1969 said it would require at least 1200 psi to work with the Borgensen box. Here's some good reads: http://www.allfordmustangs.com/forums/classic-tech/894938-thompson-pump-pressure.html http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/890864-power-steering-pressure.html Next week I'll give a call to Joe's rebuilder and see whats up. If any of you have any more info on the use of the Ford/Thompson Pumps working with a Borgensen please let us know. I also came across a site StangersSite.com, he rebuilds Ford/Thompson Pumps and gives a good history about them with plenty of pics. Thanks for all of your opinions! V2D7513075.pdf

1969_Mach1 said "I haven't tested an orginal p/s pump but according to my service manual the test procedure is 800 psi. A Saginaw pump is rated at 1200 psi." I know he didn't test the unit but he's usually right on his opinions. Joe- The info you just past on is great, since we both have Cleveland's, what works for you will for me. I have an AOD and have a used factory PS setup I bought from someone a couple of years ago. I forget if the PS pump bracket is there, but if so I can either rebuild the pump or buy a new one. I'm not looking for anything fancy, just to get a reliable PS system that will work with a Cleveland and headers. BTW, how do you like the stroker?????? PS- Now I remember where I saw your name. NJ?

Come to think of it, the fan always looked centered. I would have noticed any misalignments since I'm always working on the car. Strange the motor sits more to the right or maybe that is how they all are? I have also checked out Total Control Products R&P, very pricey but looks well made. It has 4 bolt on locations making it more secure then the Unisteer which has a 2 bolt location at the crossmember holes.

1969_Mach1- I do agree with you. However, in my case, the right header was a papers width away from the shock tower and the shaker scoop sat offset to the right approx an 1" or 1 1/2". I suspect that the car may have been in an accident. I've replaced every panel on the car besides the roof and made some rear frame rail repairs, during that time I did not find and misalignment. Since I'm happy with the body, my only thought would be to get adjustable motor mounts to fix the centering of the motor instead of a frame machine. I would eventually like to get long tube headers.

latoracing- I'm getting a set of Ron Morris engine mounts to move my engine side to side. I see you lowered yours and set it back, do you think I will have any problems with my oil pan if left in the stock position.

Looking to change form manual to power steering. I've looked at a few options and came down to a Borgensen PS box type set up or UniSteer that has a direct bolt on rack & pinion. l will be installing it with a 351 Cleveland so that in itself is the big hurdle. The down side of the Borgenson unit is trying to find a PS pump bracket which Borgenson does not carry and a factory one does not work, also there is concern of long tube header fitment. As for the UniSteer, I've read a few complaints that the unit would not directly bolt to the crossmembers old location and that a few had to oblong the holes in the unit. I did speak to UniSteer who advised that of course there will be some fitment concerns due to the age of our vehicles. Evidence shows that over time the body and frame flex's with age and gets distorted, especially when the car is placed on a stands or lifts for a long time which puts stress on the frame causing it to flex, so over time there is going to be some variances. Here is a short version on UniSteer in a 428. Opinions are welcomed. Thank you!

Ray, It will be a little while. I need to drop the block off to get prepped, order parts then rebuild. In between that time, I need to up grade to power steering and brakes. I will let you know asap what I'm doing engine wise. For now were stroking the 351C!

This is all new to me about how to figure how much to bore a cylinder. The machinist said you first figure how much out of round the cylinder is, in my case the worst one was #1 it was 0.15 out, he said then you have to get the same on the other side of the cyl so you double the amount and get 0.30. Maybe I didn't understand him. Let me know if one of you can figure what he was trying to say.

Nothing I can do about selling a motor w/o a car. Going to a longer stoke will help with low end manners, The 357 air pump just couldn't do that. The big flowing heads were just bogging down the 357. Changing to a smaller Cam may of helped a little bit or using 2V heads. I always wanted a Stroker so there's no sense going backwards. Just got word from a local machine shop that all cylinders can safety be bored to 0.30, the worst cyl #1 measured 0.15 out. They said double that amount to get 0.30 and that's the safe zone. Good news is that I can use that block, now to find a shop to get the cylinders bored and honed with torque plates, the decks squared and the mains align honed.

In a way I'm glad I pulled the motor, the combination it had was not compatable, it would of been best suited with a 4 speed on a 1/4 strip. Now with motor out, working on PB & PS will easier. Dropping off the spare to be checked. I'll try to recoup the money by selling the 357 long block. I still have the matching 4bbl intake and water pump.

1969_Mach1- Motor and tranny are out I'm in it for the long haul, gonna build a stroker. Everyone's feedback is great! That's what I like about this forum, sharing our builds and experience. Hope others that view this thread will learn from it and have the insight what accessories will fit on a stroked W or C.

Ray it never seems to amaze me. I like your humor :)

barnett468- Thank you for that write up. Thus far I have learned that the CHI 3V, is the best out there for an aftermarket Cleveland head, but I'm stuck with their proprietary intake, which won't allow the use of my Shaker Scoop. I haven't been able to figure how much higher the intake is vs. a stock one. That is why I've thought of the CHI 4V, where I can still use any intake as well as my Blue Thunder intake. The thought has come up to get a different hood, modify it as a GT hood or use a Boss 429 scope. The CHI 3V would difinitely get me in the 500-575 Hp range. Any Windsor fans out there!

Thank you all for your feedback, it has been very helpful! Up date: Haven't picked one yet, but it looks as if I'm leaning towards a Cleveland. The reason is that I already have a Std bore block to be bored out. From the 357 Cleveland I can reuse the Intake, Carb, Shorty Headers, Wires, Dist, Water Pump, Fuel Pump, Pulleys & Brackets, Radiator & Shroud, Valve Covers, Intake and Oil Pan. As for the Windsor I would have to buy all the above and more. So, the Cleveland is looking a little cheaper for now. Here is my wish list for the Cleveland to get around 475 - 500 Hp: CHI 4V 228cc cylinder heads, complete, blueprinted and assembled. Comp Cams dual valve springs, retainers, locators, Viton valve seals, and locks. Scat 9000 series 4" stroke crankshaft Scat 4340 I-beam rods Custom Racetec forged pistons, any bore size, 20cc dish, 1.5/1.5/3mm ring pack Mahle piston rings Custom Comp Cams hydraulic roller camshaft As for the Windsor I'm still trying to figure out a Hydro Roller Cam combination. I would like to use ARF 205 or 220cc Competition Cyl Heads, Edelbrock Performer, Long Tube Headers and Scat Crankshaft & Rods. IMO, with any engine choice I still can obtain Power Brakes and Steering. What puzzles me is that both blocks can easily be stroked to 500Hp, so it becomes a personal decision for now. It would of been an easier pick if one was much cheaper to build. What's probably gonna make the choice for me, is the fate of Std bore Cleveland block I have lying in the corner of the garage, depending if the machine shop says it's a good core or not. Please keep the Build opinions coming!

1969_Mach1- You posted 3:33am, your worse than me, always thinking about these darn cars! I never really measured it, but I believed that the booster would touch or be very close to the VC's, also I went with a big bore Maverick Master Cyl and a rear proportionate valve thinking that would give me plenty of stopping power. For those thinking to use a Maverick MC, don't! I first had a set of Alum. Mickey Thompson's, it had studs on the inside top for oil drippage. My Pedestal Scorpion 1.73 rocker arms knocked them off. I found that out when manually turning the crank to line up the flywheel to converter. Lucky for me it didn't happen under its own power. I tried a set of factory VC's and they would not bolt on. Besides, I like the look of the Ford Racing. I like to get a Borgenson PS unit, as for the Cleveland I'm not sure if there would be enough room with headers to run the pressure lines. What do you think? I thought about this last night, how about a 408C with the same iron heads, It has news valves and springs and the builder is cleaning them up. All I would need to do is ground off the pedestals for screw in studs to fit a bigger cam. Or is it foolish to throw money in those heads and I should just buy a set of Alloy's? I tend to want the best, then when it comes down to laying out some cash, I end up budgeting the project, then later I wish I did it another way.

Here's the old 289 and the Cleveland, a little spoiled with all of the room the 289 gave.

GM Tech, Huh! The majority of my youth, I was a GM man having a 1967 & 1969 RS Camaros both 350's, M21 and 12 bolt 4:11's, tons of fun and worry free! My first car was a 69 Mach 1, Royal Maroon, 428 SCJ dragpak with a 3 speed slap stick (C6) and Detroit Locker 4:30, bought for $900 the Summer of my Junior in HS. The following Spring I totaled it. I never forgot about that car which is why I built this 69, it's not an original, it did come with a Windsor and I know that Cleveland's weren't used until 1970. I tried to build it close to what the 1st looked like besides the side stripes and different color maroon. Thanks for the picture Ray! I know that PS was used w/ Cleveland's but I didn't want to take too much vacuum from the motor and I needed to have enough elbow room. Now 3rd time around (1st motor wild 289) I can install PB's. I have also thought about the Borgeson steering, at first I installed a rebuilt close ratio box thinking it shouldn't be a problem, but quickly found that it is very hard to steer in tight spaces especially at Car Shows, on highway driving it's ok. I still need time to put a cost comparison on each and go from there. I guess I can try to sell the Cleveland long block? I appreciate your comments and look forward to other opinions, Pro or Con, Thanks!

As some of you know, I had to tear down my 357C for leaking valves. As I sit there staring at the engine compartment with just a short block & trans, I'm contemplating now would be the time to change torque converters and build another motor. I have a stout AOD and a 28 spline 9" w/ 4:11's, I want to build a Stroker either a Windsor or Cleveland, in addition I want to add a Power Brake booster and maybe some sort of Power Steering. I don't want to get carried away with Torque & Horsepower above 550, but both can easily achieve that. With the popularity of Stroker Kits and new developments of Alloy heads, both W & C prices have come down with the Cleveland just a little more pricey. Here are my thoughts: The Cleveland has thinner walls making it hard to go past 0.30. On the oiling side there are options for Oiling mods, which I already did with the 357C. Plus my car is already set up for the Cleveland, such as radiator, water pump, Intake, Distributor, Shorty Headers, Valve Covers, fuel pump etc.. I would have to change my front coil springs because of differences in motor weight. Also, I have a big graphic sticker on the side of my car "351 Boss". Just pulling spark plug wires on a Cleveland with tall Valve Covers is a chore, imagine changing plugs. Another thought, I'd like to use long tube headers, with the shorty headers, one tube is a papers width away from the shock tower, this goes to show how tight the Cleveland's are, they have (small block short blocks) & (big block heads). The heads and tall valve covers prevented me from using a power brake booster. The only thing I can see going for the W is better oiling, thicker walls and smaller heads allowing the ease of headers, change of spark plugs and the use of a power brake booster. I would have to get all new external components such as oil pan, headers, intake, Dist, water pump, Alt brackets, Radiator and whatever else I can't remember for now. The WOW factor for me is that the Windsor is smaller and must be a lot easier to work on. What do you think?

Mike, Thank you for that info. I'm still investigating on what to do. I have 4:11's. AFR 205 vs. TFS TW 205 what do you think? In a way I'm pretty excited to do a new build and with something I can install a power brake booster. Had few close calls with the manual set up. I also believe header fitment will be easier than a Cleveland, what is the the best tube diameter? If I decide to go Windsor, I'll have to start another thread. Thanks!

Mach1Rider Yes, he did what you suggested in post #25, good call. He did mention that the other shop messed up on the guide work. IIRC, something like you can still see the drill or bolt mark and one side you don't. The heads were rebuilt by someone else, I just changed the factory valves to SS single groove Valve Stems, new double springs and Scorpion 1.73 Pedestal Roller Rockers. Not checked to Rocker to Stem pattern. Nice to see your still around, how's life in the country at the new place!

Someone probably contacted them offline and made a purchase. IMO, it's not worth the 15k. If your interested in a numbers matching car, it's long gone and a complete 428 & C6 only is more than 15k. Now a days, with the plethora of parts you can take a plain jane and build what ever car you want, a lot less than a numbers matching and more fun to have. Just my 2 cents!

Just got back from the machine shop, he looked at the head gasket and said it looked fine, that it didn't leak between #1 & #2. He took the #2 exhaust valve out and lapped it. He found that one side of the valve was barley touching the seat, the valve was not bent, but can see into the guide that one side did not having any wear, the valve was riding on an angle. Further inspection found that the valve stem tip witness mark was wearing towards the edge, as if the roller tip was on an angle and had developed a very tiny mushroom on the edge. As for now he's going to take both heads apart do whatever it needs to be done to fix it. I do not know what the future holds for this Cleveland. I learned that it will not do me well as a street engine but well enough if raced, where I can keep the rpms high all the time. He suggested for me to build a Windsor based roller type block, stroked to a 393 or 408, using AFR 205cc heads and an Edelbrock RPM Performer with a 2800-3000 stall converter. Whats your say!

I have been advised by someone who is experienced that by looking at the pictures they believe there was a head gasket problem, I really couldn't tell myself. I pulled the 2nd head and it looks a lot cleaner, not as much surface rust. I'm bringing the head and gasket to the builder and see what he has to say. I can't believe I had this problem with approx 1500-2000 mile motor. Yes, now is the time to decide what to build. If I put the heads back on same problem, if I put in another cam who knows what would happen. One thing for sure, if I build another its gonna be a Stroked Windsor or Cleveland. I would like to build something in the 500hp range, having small heads that Windsor use would be great, I can fit headers, get a brake power booster, ease of changing plugs etc.... As for the Cleveland, I have most of the stuff, a std bore short block in the corner, manifold, dist, headers etc.. I'll just need a stroker kit and Alum heads and a torque converter. Food for thought! What's your take!!!!